Microsoft: evil empire or friendly giant?

[zak]

This poll is prompted by an article at:

http://www.****microsoft.com/content/whatsbad.shtml

What do you hate/love about the Redmond giant?

[planetsim]

I cant think of a great thing thats come out of Microsoft that hasnt had a big glitch in it. Why do you think hackers learn how to have for Windows. There's so many security issues with it its not funny.

[ereptur]

Without Microsoft, I could play my very important games. I could however, do my work, much easier.

[zak]

It makes you wonder whether the glitches are deliberate, for a company that supposedly employs "only the very best"...

I've heard people say that if it wasn't for Windows, Linux wouldn't be where it is today. Could be true, but then we'd probably be using Macs instead or something... In truth, if it wasn't for Windows, Linux would be in a much *BETTER* position than it is now. Plus we would be a lot better off in pocket.

.... nice thoughts.....

[ahundiak]

If it wasn't for Microsoft then Paul Allen would probably not be a billionare. And if Paul Allen was not a billionare then the Seattle taxpayers would probably not have given him 430 million dollars to build a new football stadium. And without a new football stadium, the Seattle Seahawks would have to move to another ciy to lose their games. And that city could have been mine. My taxes are already high enough so:

Go Microsoft.

[MrRosary]

I personally dont think MS are good or evil.

I think they are merely incompetent and have a really really really strange marketing department.

MrRosary

[piersk]

Originally posted by MrRosary
I think they are merely incompetent and have a really really really strange marketing department.

Not too mention a very good one...

[dalecosp]

M$ is a business run by geeks who became rich and powerful, built a huge campus, gave themselves large salaries, and then found out that the cash cow had to be fed to keep producing.

That might explain quite a bit, actually...

[LukeO]

Lol, the old MS discussion again. I would put my points across if I hadnt already a hundred times, but to cut a long story short, Sun, I think you need to grow up a little and find someone else to embed.

NEWS UPDATE Microsoft received a reprieve on Monday from a court order requiring the company to ship Sun Microsystems' Java software. The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals granted Microsoft a stay of a Jan. 21 decision from U.S. District Judge J. Frederick Motz in Baltimore, who gave the company 120 days to begin including Sun's latest Java runtime environment in every copy of Windows and Internet Explorer.

Luke

[orionblue]

The scariest thing about MS is the monopoly they have - it's like weird tech evolution - if there is one bad gene the whole works could be wiped out.

[mpirvul]

I am guessing that the page referred to in the original post, http://www.****microsoft.com/content/whatsbad.shtml is running on IIS as it failed to come up for me... :eek: lol

[LukeO]

If they are using IIS, wouldnt it be ironic :).

[dalecosp]

It popped right up for me. Netcraft (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?mode_u=off&mode_w=on&site=****microsoft.com) says its running Apache on FreeBSD, which seems more appropriate to me. However, the "Netblock Owner" is listed as NT Sales :) . Still yet, checkout some other sites within this netblock, (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/hosted?netname=IBS-NTS-01,209.25.4.0,209.25.7.255) which may be of interest to this discussion.

Please note: that while I may agree with certain statements, I personally deplore the overuse of expletives, particularly in domain names. OTOH, they've got pretty good uptime. Kudos to FreeBSD.....

[LukeO]

Originally posted by zak
Could be true, but then we'd probably be using Macs instead or something... In truth, if it wasn't for Windows, Linux would be in a much *BETTER* position than it is now.

Yup, but then you would be complaining about Linux now wouldnt you :).

Luke

[rpanning]

I agree with LukeO, there will alway be people who hate the most profitable company. If not Microsoft then some one else.

[dalecosp]

Hmm, how 'bout the Opera Stylesheet issue currently on the frontpage at /. ?

My brother the MIS says they're "slimy & underhanded" on that one....

For those who aren't nerd enough for /. here it is (http://deb.opera.com/howcome/2003/2/msn/) at Opera dot com/no.....

[largo]

Originally posted by rpanning
I agree with LukeO, there will alway be people who hate the most profitable company. If not Microsoft then some one else.

I disagree with that entirely. Microsoft has time and again taken on itself the sole responsibility of pushing down competition, of monopolizing the market -- on even the smallest level -- case in point being Opera. It's not the only browser out there, but it's certainly a damn good one and nipping it in the bud is a safe alternative.

It's not about "hate" or "profits". It's about poorly written software (and I do not believe it's on purpose) and a marketing team which, as the topic of this thread conveys, does whatever it takes to make sh*t look like spit shined gold. How do you explain AOL having 23 (?) million users?

[LukeO]

Come now largo, regarding Opera, its one page out of thousands, and I have already read several different articles portraying both sides. Would you not consider it strange that MS is doing nothing about this if it is true?

And as for monopolisation, I initially constructed a response to this which was considerably long, but I think I'll stick to a shortened version. Lets take one random example;

Building IE into Windows, sure a monopoly alright, you make an os, put your browser in it, and thats REAL wrong. If you want their browser, you comply to it, and if you dont want to, use a different OS, people who spend time saying I hate MS, but I have to use their software..... how pathetic, we all have free choice in this country, nobody HAS to do anything.

Luke

[largo]

True. I use debian linux as a result. I do have a windows partition however which serves it's purpose.

You said it well, everyone has a choice. I don't encourage people to move to linux if windows serves what they need. I know my grandma is better suited to AOL and windows XP than debian and mutt :)

The argument however is microsoft tactics. Building IE into windows is just icing on the cake. Options are given on such a hardcore level that alternatives just don't seem feasible to average users. Microsoft has done whatever it takes to make that happen and it's not about to get easier. Linux is on 2% of all desktops (according to a misplaced survey, I think I can find it again), that means 98% of the people "chose" windows?... Use the force Luke. :)

[dalecosp]

M$'s penchant for quashing competition is relatively unparalleled in the history of the world, with the possible exception of people like Adolf Hitler or Nero, IMHU*O......

So many complaints, from so many companies. It *could* just be the fact that we have too many lawyers, and M$'s pockets are so deep, but my Grandaddy always used to say "where's there's smoke, there's fire..." and I firmly believe that mankind is inherently NOT good...given the chance, why wouldn't M$ play dirty?

I'm not sure that there was ever an age in which corporations existed for the good of the public and upheld high standards within the community; if there ever was, it's truly over as far as M$ is concerned...and as far as a LOT of corporations are concerned. Which brings us to this, an adage oft-used in politics..."we get what we deserve."

Until we, as a national and international community, demand better conduct of ourselves and our families/friends, we will not get better conduct from companies like M$...

* let's just say 'uneducated,' shall we?

[LukeO]

You make a good case dalecosp, many many many companies only exist for one purpose; themselves. However something which should be taken into consideration, this is not the amount, but percentage- Microsoft distributes 11% of its total profit to a variety of different charities, currently holding the 8th place for the ""top donators"". Now remember, its not amount, its percentage, just something to think over.

Luke

[SensualSandwich]

Microsoft and its buggy software can bite.

[dalecosp]

Well, that's nice Luke, (really, I'm not trying to be sarcastic) but I give 12 percent myself, and that's of total income, not just total profit. OTOH, my pockets ain't so deep...

What's the probability that if they could deduct more they'd give more? ;)

[LukeO]

Yes dalecosp, but we are talking about corporations, obviously a charity foundation would give a much much greater percentage of their profits to charity, but in terms of large businesses, Microsoft is 8th.

Luke

[mogster]

I don't think we should underestimate MS importance in making the computer accessible for the big majority.
They have done a LOT for the computer community just by making it bigger, and made a lot of dollars in the process.

Well and good, but they now seem a part of the old thinking, where you protet your code for all it's worth and never display it.
They sell their code as a packet, and this is counterproductive in a market where everyone else is gearing in on open source, and competing in delivering services based on open thinking, as well as their own code.
The opensource community has resources Microsoft can't even begin to dream of, and it's dirt cheap because a lot of it is based on good will, free work and natural curiosity.

In addition there's the security dimension.
In this respect, Microsoft's size has started to work against them. Just by putting a MS-server on the net, you're subjected to every security hole published as a auto-spreading virus by the vermin.
Since the server-os and the os of all those millions of home computers are the same, there's no incompability in executing commands between them, and the result is that they spread very quickly.

In my opinion MS is IBM all over again: they just get to arrogant and forget to adjust to the world changing.
So far they have managed to float on their past glories, but the security issue looms in the background...

knutm - from his windows xp laptop :D

[LukeO]

I agree to some extent, but in-admist of Linux withdrawing support for many of their older releases (and by older I mean 6 months old), your point about the open source community is questionable.

Luke

[Norman Graham]

I also work for a large company - OK, not even remotely as large as MS, but large by the standards prevalent in my line of work - and having a lot of employees and huge capital resources is fantastic for being able to take risks. However, many cooks spoil the broth. What you really need for some of these MS products is a very small team of obsessive perfectionists. But that means allowing them to work to a very long deadline. With a short deadline, you need a huge team of conveyer-belt-type workers, each adding their little bit. This means bugs and loads of them. This means products that pay no attention to things like memory efficiency, processor efficiency, multiple-layer user friendliness (e.g. error messages that tell you something useful).

I like Win98. I'd be happy to wait another 5 years for a version of XP that really, really works, is completely stable, produces useful error messages and tells me what it's doing and when it's doing it, but MS doesn't work that way. I'd also like an installation process in which I can click yes/no on every single dumb, useless MS gizmo that you get without asking for. If I want them, I'll install them later. Again, MS doesn't work that way. This is because they are trying to get something impressive out in a short space of time, so they invent means of dazzling those who are easily dazzled.

MS: Huge company, too many products, not enough time
Mac: Smallish company, few products, not enough time (did they get anyone to test their amazing new computers which don't have a f**!ing disk drive?)
Linux: Small company, lots of customer input, horizontal hierarchy, slow development time, high quality, low user-friendliness for computer illiterates (i.e. most MS customers)

Fact of the matter is, the majority of MS customers know little or nothing about computers and have accepted that its normal for software to crash once a day, produce incomprehensible messages and do things you certainly didn't ask it to do. MS knows this and is laughing all the way to the bank.

Summary: I'm undecided, but I wish I had the time to understand Linux better. A job for the near future, I think.

Norman

[Elizabeth]

There is an old saying that goes, "if you don't make yourself obsolete then your competition will." And in their race to fight obsolence MS has created some inferior products.

However, even inferior products have their place in the world, IMHO. Just like some of us have to eat at McDonald's where they will get your order wrong 4 out of 5 times, and the food ain't that great- we still go back. Why? Because it's what we know, it's what we like despite it's forthcomings, and it's something we can afford. Now, I'm not saying MS products are cheap necessarily, but what I'm saying is they're "cheap" in the intellectual sense. Not everyone can understand Linux, and not everyone wants to understand Linux... and that's where Windows fills the niche. Just like I'd rather eat at McDonald's than the 5-star French restaurant here in town.

I forget who said it earlier in this post, but although MS certainly has its forthcomings, and they are FAR from being perfect... look at what they have done to bring the Internet to the common person. (Yes, I know- not necessarily a "good thing" LOL). My 70 year old Mother-in-law can now see pictures of our daughter with the click of a button. She can correspond with her friends in Florida instantaneously. And for someone who has yet to figure out the "workings" of a VCR- this is pretty amazing.

It could also be said that Bill Gates single-handedly made being a geek "cool" which is just fine by a geek like me :)

And, a quick word about their "charities" - I can say firsthand that the high school I graduated from has an entire new computer department courtesy of Bill Gates, thus spawning more and more geeks. That's certainly more than I've done for my high school- I didn't give them sh*t.

I like when the little guys take on the big guys, and I also think competition helps everybody produce the best product they can, so I'm not a huge Microsoft fan- but I also think they have certainly made their mark on our way of life and our culture... and you have to give them some credit for that.

My $0.02 :)

-Elizabeth

[ishbo]

The beginning of Resident Evil - where it describes an all powerfull umbrella company - seems to be an obscure and well hidden allusion to your favorite, Microsoft. The umbrella coporation ends up killing like 100s of people. A prophecy, conspiracy, or just coincidence?

[LukeO]

Originally posted by ishbo
The beginning of Resident Evil - where it describes an all powerfull umbrella company - seems to be an obscure and well hidden allusion to your favorite, Microsoft. The umbrella coporation ends up killing like 100s of people. A prophecy, conspiracy, or just coincidence?

A game.

Hear hear Elizabeth, I think you pretty much read my mind.

Luke

[Merve]

Microsoft programs can sometimes be a pain in the butt, and they've just taken over the OS software world. But I think that if Microsoft didn't exist, some other company would have replaced Microsoft and this thread would be about that company.

Oh yeah, I voted for the penguin option because I thought it was funny.

[Moonglobe]

LOL another 6 month + bumb by merve..... good find this one ive only been here 5 months...

[dalecosp]

"Finder of rare antiquities" :)

[Merve]

LOL another 6 month + bumb by merve..... good find this one ive only been here 5 months...
Moonglobe, what the heck do you mean by that? I've only been here 2 weeks!

[bad76]

Hi,
don't worry, he tell only that this thread are 6 month old. (and LOL=lot of laughs... it's only humor)

[Merve]

ohhh...he meant bump, not bumb

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by rpanning
I agree with LukeO, there will alway be people who hate the most profitable company. If not Microsoft then some one else. http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/E/Evil-Empire.html