My PHP fears for the future

[Davidc316]

Last night I was reading a computing magazine and I saw an advert for the new Dreamweaver MX. I can't remember the exact wording, but the said something like;

"With this amazing new version of Dreamweaver you'll be able to create dynamic webpages in an instant".

This has got me worried.

You see, I've only been learning PHP for about a week now, but I don't want to waste the next chapter of my life learning this stuff if a program is gonna come along that could've saved me all the effort.

And, I know this sounds a bit prudish but I don't fancy the idea of learning PHP (and it's not easy!) and then a few months down the line any guy off the street can just buy (or download) a program that can do PHP ten times better and quicker than me or probably anyone on this forum! If that's gonna happen then I think PHP learning time would have been better spent taking basket weaving classes.

And remember, it's not as if this kind of thing hasn't happened before. My brother learned raw HTML programming when he was at university back in the mid 90's. At the time it was considered a *real* skill being able to do this stuff, but now it's totally unnecessary to know HTML and all kinds of jokers are building websites without knowing a single line of HTML programming.

I don't want this same thing to happen with PHP.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

[Weedpacket]

Well, until artificial intelligence is a reality and not a marketing buzzword, the art of programming will continue to require natural intelligence. Especially when one is talking about a programming langauge and not a markup language.

Of course, if everything you write is the sort of thing that can be cobbled together from half-a-dozen basic modules like Lego blocks...

Moving this thread to a more appropriate forum.

[Norman Graham]

Norman's back ... HTML isn't a programming language at all - it's a layout and style tagging subset - and anyone can learn good basic HTML in a week. Web editors are all very well, but they often do things that you don't actually want and often use proprietary tags which only work in some browsers and are not approved by the W3C. Try using Frontpage for anything at all and you'll see what a mess it makes. Many web hosters don't even accept web pages created with Frontpage.

The beauty of learning a genuine programming language like PHP, ASP (VB, C#), Java, C++, Javascript, Python ... is that you learn how programming languages work and can apply that knowledge to a whole range of programming languages.

Furthermore, using a web editor is fine if you have it installed, but I can write HTML, PHP, Javascript on any computer anywhere (even ancient PCs that should be in a museum) - I just need the most basic text editor imaginable. You can even do it on a handheld or some combination PDA/mobile phones, and indeed I write PHP on a piece of paper while taking the train to work.

It's up to you - I like to know how code works.

Cheers

Norman

[Bunkermaster]

Originally posted by Norman Graham
...anyone can learn good basic HTML in a week.

Why wait a whole week when 2 hours are more than enough?

:D

[Davidc316]

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to know PHP and over the past week or so I've spent about 7 or 8 hours a day trying to learn it. But, does it not annoy you knowing that clueless idiots like me can turn up for the same job interviews as guys like you? We can build the same kind of websites as guys like you. We can do all of these things and yet... we hardly know anything about programming at all!

I only found out about Dreamweaver MX this morning and I have to tell you... it's really put a spanner in the works. I mean, apart from anything else I was kind of enjoying the process of learning PHP. I felt that I was onto something good. Something special. Something that would separate me from the rest of the herd. Sure, learning PHP has been tough, but there was a good feeling in the air! But now suddenly I feel as though I'm wasting my time.

If the best benifits you can think of for knowing PHP are that you can do it on an old computer in a museum or on a train, then I think that's a very sad state of affairs.

You're a talented guy. You've aquired a skill that probably took a great deal of time and effort on your part. But now, all of that skill, all of that intelligence and all of that ability has been replaced with a program that can be downloaded by any guy on the street free of charge.


I see the thread has been moved somewhere else, which is fair enough, but there's one other change that should've been made to this thread- maybe I should've made the title "The tragedy of programming".

Sure, we can transfer our skills to other programming languages... but how long with it be be Macromedia or someone else comes up with another idiot proof program that replaces the need for learning.

Maybe I'm just focussing on the negative too much.

[superwormy]

Dreamweaver will never be able to generate anything I'd consider 'Dynamic'

To people using Dreamweaver, 'Dynamic' is a buzzword that means flashy little Javascript rollovers and template designs.


Hand coded HTML is still, FAR, FAR, BETTER than anything any moron using Dreamweaver can generate. Dreamweaver generates sloppy code, ( although FrontPage is worse ) that is less-maintainable than anythign hand-coded. And it will never be able to generate PHP code.

So dont' worry :-)


Seriously, if you think that WYSIWYG applications will ever replace hand-coded computer code... you're living in your own little dream-world man. Dreamweaver is a LAYOUT program, not a tool to program. HTML is not a programming language, its a MARKUP language, the concepts behind HTML and PHP are entirely different.

It's apples to oranges man.

[Davidc316]

Ok superwormy, but have you not checked out Dreamweaver MX? I haven't. But, I've read a few reviews and on the official Dreamweaver site they've got video tutorials that you can download. According to the information I've observed, the new Dreamweaver CAN generate PHP coding for you.

[superwormy]

Think about this geez, how the heck could you write an application that writes applications for you???

Go read the Dreamweaver MX PHP 'tutorials' on MacroMedia.com, they are GARBAGE. The code it 'generates' is simply a few base templates available through extensions, it isn't actually generating code.

Note to mention look at the example code, its GARBAGE, entirely unorganized and ugly and not even up-to-date for PHP 4.

The template functionality is extremelly limited, and not suitable for anything more than small-scale projects. It's limited to simple templates and form processing. Anyone who knows HTML already can easily figure out how to process a CGI form or to include() a header and footer across the entire site, thats nothing new.

Don't forget also that PHP is MEANT to be easy to learn and easy to pick-up for people. It's a scripting language, it sacrafices speed / efficiency / flexability for ease of use and short development time.

If you want to learn a real programming language that you can be sure will never be replaced, learn C or C++, Perl is another good one.



Sheesh, don't you think if it was this possible and this easy to make something to generate whole coded applications for you C or C++ would have a pretty GUI 'code-generator' for you by now? The language has only been around for, what, 30 YEARS now?!?

Nothing will ever replace true logic programming, problem solving and application design, the only ones of us that need to worry about being replaced by Dreamweaver are the ones who ask questions like ' how do I find a string in another string ' without READING THE FING MANUAL FIRST or who post every single parse error they come across to teh boards asking for HELP! URGENT!

Learn to fricking debug your own code and problem solve on your own for petes sake!

[Bunkermaster]

Davidc316, no offense intended but if you don't see what we can do more than dreamweaver MX, you should hit the books pretty hard and come back in a couple years.

Most of the people on this forum are experts in their field. They all have specialties in PHP in which they excell. You can't possibly think that some application developed by C++ experts will replace grey matter and creativity. If you do well... We'll have fun at the job interviews :D

[Norman Graham]

Originally posted by Davidc316
If the best benifits you can think of for knowing PHP are that you can do it on an old computer in a museum or on a train, then I think that's a very sad state of affairs.
These are not the benefits of using PHP but the benefits of not using web editors - give me any computer with a 3,5" disk drive and I'll create you a working website which you receive in the post and can load up to any hoster you fancy. I could even include PHP functionality and MySQL if you tell me what password you want. The whole thing will fit on one disk. It won't be pretty, but it'll work. Indeed, I recently read an article about a school teacher in a village in Nepal who buys discarded computer components at the flea market down in the valley and helps his pupils create websites - they make computer cases with wood and create seatings for the mainboard etc using thousand-year old woodworking skills. They connect up to the net with your standard phone cable and make websites using notepad, solid HTML knowledge and bugger all else. Hats off to them.

There's just no substitute for learning the code, my friend. If you like Dreamweaver MX, go ahead and use it, but your man Superwormy is spot on with his assessment - most things that actually utilise the possibilities of any genuine programming or scripting language can't be done with point and click, and Dreamweaver can even screw up HTML, which isn't even a programming language.

Best o luck

Norman

[BuzzLY]

I just went to Kmart today, and found this really cool kitchen appliance that can chop up any vegetable for you! Chefs around the world better watch out, 'cuz I know how to use a food processor now. I wonder how they feel knowing that there are a bunch of appliances and tools just sitting around at my local Wal-Mart, that anyone can use to cook with?

And doesn't anyone watch late night TV any more??? Ron Popeil has created this appliance that can cook a whole chicken! You just "set it and forget it!" It's so easy!!!

Those 5-star chefs better fear for their jobs -- I think I'm going to apply for a job at The Maissonette tomorrow!

Sound silly, Davidc316? Of course. That is exactly how your arguments sound. If someone could create a tool that generates programs, then why are there University courses teaching programming fundamentals? Believe me, any programmer worth his salt is glad for tools like Dreamweaver MX. They pretty much guarantee job security for them, since most of the stuff created by such tools is so kludgy that eventually real programmers will have to fix the bad code.

So... go ahead and use it, and stop learning PHP. Give me a call when you need help :D

[superwormy]

Damn BuzzLY , you are RIGHT ON DUDE!

[laserlight]

"how the heck could you write an application that writes applications for you"
actually, that should be possible, at least in theory.
'Wizards' in some IDEs do that to some extent, and when it comes down to it, compilers do that to, in a way.

But then it can be seen that machine code coded by hand, assuming it doesnt have too many bugs and is written well, will normally run faster and better than code with the same functionality generated by a compiler.

Likewise, even if Dreamweaver MX does manage to provide PHP support that comes anywhere close to the standard that we can code, the code is likely to be, um, below standard, shall we say? Of course optimizing compilers mean that slightly slower programs are a good trade off for an even slower and bug filled coding process, but if Dreamweaver MX wants to do more than provide simple templates that we can cook up as fast as it can and better, then it must have some sort of 'wizard' as well. This creates even more opportunity for inefficient and simply bad code that the software probably wont optimize very well, if at all.


"...pretty much guarantee job security for them..."
shh, you shouldnt go around revealing our secrets to the lusers :D

[superwormy]

'Wizards' don't write code that writes applications... they use pre-built chunks of code to guess at what you want to do. Once you go beyond the scope of the Wizard... you're screwed.

You will never, or at least until we see the real advent of true AI, be able to tell a computer, I want you to build me an application that first spiders the web for webpages, then stores those links, then fetches more pages, then ranks them based on relevance, and finally spits out data to the user. ( Search Engine )

You might be able to tell it, OK, open this HTML page, while there is an A HREF tag in this HTML page, you need to first find the beginning A HREF and then read until the end " or ( space ) and record all those URLs to the database by doing a INSERT INTO table SET url = 'url_you_found' bla bla bla etc...

But at that point..., when you get that specific you're already written the program, just its in human 'syntax' instead of PHP syntax, and you just need a Human => PHP Compiler to change it into machine-readable code. But the LOGIC, thats the important part, adn the human has done all that work!

And compilers don't handle LOGIC, thus don't write applications... they translate already written applications to something the machien knows how to handle. It's like translating French to English.

[laserlight]

"But the LOGIC, thats the important part, adn the human has done all that work! "

From the standpoint of Davidc316's fears, that is actually quite acceptable.
Dreamweaver doesnt write HTML pages either, the human does that, presumably through some point and click interface.
I've never used Dreamweaver myself since I write my webpages in a text editor, but that seems to be what it will do.

[superwormy]

Right, but the amount of logic required to draw a fricking rectangle just a tad different from the amount of logic required to parse out and handle an XML document... or even to run through a while () loop...

I mean, I agree, yes, Dreamweaver could be used easily to generate PHP to handle a submitted CGI form, or to echo() output or to include() a file... but thats not exactly complicated logic is it? Learning to include() and echo() are not exactly our goals as PHP programmers are they...?

[laserlight]

I mean, I agree, yes, Dreamweaver could be used easily to generate PHP to handle a submitted CGI form, or to echo() output or to include() a file... but thats not exactly complicated logic is it? Learning to include() and echo() are not exactly our goals as PHP programmers are they...?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Difficulty in expressing logic in a form more suitable for use by the layman might be able to be solved.
Due to the lack of accuracy there will probably be alot of inefficient and redundant code generated though, and bugs are likely too, at least until the technology improves or AI improves.

[jllydgnt]

Big ups and mad respect to superwormy, laserlight, BuzzLY, Weedpacket, Norman Graham, and Bunkermaster for setting this guy straight. Very valid points. Some of you touched on one concept that I would like to expand upon. Dreamweaver and especially FrontPage are for bobo ass-clowns who don't really know what the hell they are doing. It makes me sick to have to take pages of that sloppy-ass code created by some jackass who won't learn HTML and add PHP to it. I would rather do it myself from scratch with Notepad. Once again, FrontPage is for bobo ass-clowns who are comfortable with Microsoft Word.

[superwormy]

Amen jllydgnt

[Davidc316]

Ok, before I go any further can we please change the tone of this thread?

I'm merely a guy trying to learn PHP who happened to read a review today about some software that I've never previously heard of. Already on this thread I'm reading some replies that appear to be quite hostile towards me. None of what I'm saying here is a personal insult towards any programmers. In fact, if anything I'm on your side! I WANT someone to tell me that there will always be a place for good programming skills. I WANT to know that Dreamweaver will never replace PHP knowledge.

I ALSO want to write some more, but my dinner's burning!

Catch you later!

:D

[superwormy]

Sorry, didn't mean any offense :-)

Oh and btw...

There will always be a place for good programming skills.
Dreamweaver will never replace PHP knowledge.




:-P

[Davidc316]

Ok. Sorry about the ten minute break but I left something in the oven and my kitchen went on fire! (the things I do for PHP! :P )

Anyway, that's cool superwormy. You *were* starting to get me a bit paranoid there and I'm glad to know you're not gonna beat me up.


Back to the conversation....

Just a couple more points I want to make.

Just the other day, on one of the forums here at phpbuilder.com, someone said to me (something like) "Hey, that's some pretty good java script you've got on your site!" and they generally seemed to be expressing how impressed they were with this website that I'd built. Anyway... I don't know a single line or Java and I basically said to the person, sorry but I think you're mistaken- there is no java on my site.

But, sure enough, someone checked out the source code for my home page (and then copied it onto the forum) and SHOCK HORROR- there it was!!! Java script!

It turns out that the software I had used has some kind of vibe going where you point and click (I think it was for an image rollover or something) and without you even being aware of it, it puts some java script on your site.

So, there you have it! The point I'm making is that, maybe there are some cases when you *can* get idiot proof programs to write scripts for you. Is that not a good example?

And finally...

on a slightly more positive note, I can tell you that since my first post I've had a chance to try out this Dreamweaver MX for myself. The verdict? It's was a NIGHTMARE to use! I think I was even more confused with that than I was with my PHP scripts.

So, to Hell with it- I'm going back to my "Learn PHP in 24 hours" book. From what I can tell, learning this Dreamweaver MX would probably be even more of a struggle than learning PHP!

[jllydgnt]

Sorry, Davidc316. Didn't mean to offend you. I know you were just asking, not telling. I'm just venting about a situation at work. But seriously, if anyone ever plans to do any real-deal web programming, they first better be able to develop static pages without the aid of FrontPage, Dreamweaver, etc. That's my opinion.

[Davidc316]

Well Jlly, I can tell you, you've got my total sympathy.

I mean, the work issue in particular is one that I think is a real shame. I can talk from experience here cos a few years ago I used to run a small webdesign company with my brother. Incase you're wondering, he built and I just walked the streets trying to sell the things.

Anyway, this way back in 1998 and back then (at least where I live) there wasn't too many people on the streets who knew how to build decent websites. It was probably as much of a skill as being a plumber or a joiner.

But now of course, that's all changed. Now a days pretty much anyone can build a reasonably sucessful site without any *real* skills at all. It's all point at click. At least, that's the impression I get.

But the one Ray of light (if the people on this thread are correct) is that by buckling down and getting to grips with stuff like PHP, then maybe guys like us will be able to stay a step ahead of the rest of the herd.

[superwormy]

Yeah, I mean anyone can build a simple website, but ask that anyone to build a simple search engine... or a shopping cart... or whatever else custom you want built. Sure you can use some pre-fab script set, but as soon as you need to customize it, or your company out-grows the current implementation, you're screwed.

If its a custom application, you have the freedom to edit and tweak and redo parts of it that arn't fitting to your specific application.

I personally know this from experience... I work for a company that sells custom printed clothign and embroidered clothing, custom patches, etc. Before I started, the company bought a pre-fab already built CGI shopping cart called Shopsite ( WORST PROGRAM EVER! ) and now we're tied into it. Problem is, about 50% of the application isn't relavent to us, and it makes EVERYTHING a NIGHTMARE to manage.

But we can't change the program itself to make it more fitting, and we can't abandon it now 'cause no-one wants to invest the time or money to build something custom. So instead we WASTE MONEY trying to make-due with what we have.

We went with something akin to Dreamweaver, and for a half-year it was great. Now we've out-grown it, it's impossible to manage, invested tons of money in it, wasted tons of time, and can't get away from it. Pre-fab scripts and Dreamweaver GUI are great when you're a mom-and-pop group whose website rarely changes and never grows... but once you get beyond that...

If we had gone ahead and spent the time to learn the logic and shopping cart concepts and built our own, we would save eons of time and valuable money... we have probably 2 full-time jobs right now which basically serve just to work around the system we bought that doesn't work as it should.

As far as that JavaScript... rollovers are really simple :-) Dreamweaver / Frontpage allow Javascript rollovers through simple pre-built scripts that do just that... rollovers :-) All they do when you tell them to make one is substitute image names into a pre-fab Javascript template.

[stolzyboy]

I was one of them that told you there was javascript on your site,
and i also told you it was a Macromedia program that generated it, and yeah, Dreamweaver did do the javascript, but all it was
was some rollovers, well that is simple enough to do with a point and click, but come on, building dynamic sites with point and click php gui's, LOL

anyway, let them develop wizards, and let people who don't care
use them crap wizards to "do" the code for you and they won't
have to think, and when it comes down to the client asking for something that the gui can't do, which won't be that far into the imagination, they can call on real programmers to do the work,
hell if there wasn't crap code out there, how many of use would
have a hard time finding something to do

my . 02 cents

[Weedpacket]

Just while we're on the subject(ish) of Dreamweaver and Dreamweaver-generated scripts and pages; in the job I'm on now, there is in the scope a bit about how the pages are supposed to be "developed in Dreamweaver", 'cos apparently "that's what web site designers use".

Now me, I don't care what "web site designers use" and neither should anyone else, so long as the site works validly. Fact is, I've gone through several hundred kB of HTML, Javascript, and server-side scripting (not in PHP, as it happens) so far and haven't once even started Dreamwever - 'cos none of the stuff I'm doing - not even the HTML - can be done in it (well, perhaps the HTML could, but do I really need to use Dreamweaver to write "<title>Worksheet List</title> <script TYPE="text/javascript" src="javascript/dlist.js"></script>"?).

There is talk (yeah yeah, there's always "talk") about getting some designers along to provide glitzy interfaces for everything, but given the amount of stuff that has already been produced the fact is that their culture will have to adapt to service us.

[Elizabeth]

In some small way, I think this discussion is akin to concerns many printing companies had when desktop publishing became so accessible to the common man through software such as Word, Wordperfect, etc. Many printing companies felt like they would become obsolete if people could suddenly print their own brochures and business cards.

Obviously this didn't happen.

I don't think there is a substitute for real expertise, and if it takes learning Dreamweaver just to keep yourself current and marketable then so be it. If an employer tells me I have to use Dreamweaver, then I'll use it to open a new document, use it for anything HTML I'm too lazy to code myself such as tables, and then type the rest in the "Source" window of Dreamweaver.

Fact of the matter is, even though programs like FrontPage and Dreamweaver exist, if you don't know anything beyond that, your pages will surely show it.

And besides, learning PHP is fun, so what the heck. ;)

-Elizabeth

[Davidc316]

You're right! I suppose it is fun (in a strange and slightly sadistic kind of way).

[jimson]

are you microsoft people... ? or dreamweaver employees... :D

em.. in my point of view...
dreamweaver is good or permitted for people who just start trying to build website, personal website, static site..., have lot of money to buy..., have time to download and test..

well, i certainly encourage people to try dreamweaver... backpage... or any other wysiNwyg apps...
i really hope that many people will stick to that apps... :D

maybe i should put an ads in my site to encourage people to try dreamweaver... well, if anyone goes to forum... or whatever events, please... please promote the dreamweaver to everybody on macromedia behalf... they will be glad and me too! ...

[Norman Graham]

I think the only thing David is afraid of is spending weeks learning code when he could achieve what he wants in one day. However, I think he has seen the light and is even now knuckling down to multiple hours at the screen with a nice 750-page PHP primer in his eager hands, resisting the temptation to double click on that Dreamweaver icon.

Doesn't it just make you feel all warm inside to know that you've saved another soul from cyberdamnation?

The web is love

Norm

[Davidc316]

You nailed it in one Norman!

The bottom line for me is that the other day I blew my last 20 quid on a how to do PHP book and I was a bit freaked out at the thought of a skint guy like me throwing my money, time, love and effort down the drain, when all along I could have pressed a magic "go" button and saved myself the hastle!

I suppose it's safe to say there IS no magic button. At least, not yet.

Anyway, that wraps up this thread for me. The next time you hear from me will probably be when I'm begging for some help with a mega simple bit of coding that all of you guys could probalby do in your sleep!

Toot toot!


PS- Norman... thanks for the advice you gave me in that email. A day or two ago it never occurred to me that the guy from Glasgow was you! I had it in my head that Norman Graham and the guy I emailed were two different people. So, I'm sorry if I've been repeating myself with you lately.

PPS- I know- it doesn't make any sense to me either!

:p

[Elizabeth]

But David, if you do have access to Dreamweaver, it might not hurt just to learn it. Yes, it's a crutch and it's no substitute for learning PHP or even HTML at the core, but it can also be a real time saver for even the most experienced programmers. You just have to pick and choose what you use it for. So you don't necessarily have to consider it an "either/or" decision. I also think that the more you know, the more it can help you later on in life... so you really can't go wrong with what you're doing :) Good luck to you!

-Elizabeth

[blitzwing]

For what it's worth, I use dreamweaver4 to make the basic layout of the pages for my site. Playing with tables seems far easier with a wysiwyg editor over notepad. After that is taken care of, I don't use it for anything else. I'm slowly teaching myself php by jumping into the deep end and trying to make a web app with a database backend. I'm using some php text editor for everything else.

As for clean code, I don't really care about that at this point in my case. I'll get it working first, then worry about cleaning up the code.

[stolzyboy]

As for clean code, I don't really care about that at this point in my case. I'll get it working first, then worry about cleaning up the code.

alot of people say this, but when they have it done, the say, "Well, it works, why go back and screw it up by trying to clean it up", and trying to clean it up after writing it is much harder than writing clean code in the first place

[superwormy]

Yeah, as soon as you get into a semi-big complicated project, clean code is a MUST. Otherwise, you'll spend hours and hours of your time trying to debug because of simple parse errors which you can't find cause your codes a mess.

Not to mention, if you'reever in a situatio where more than one person is working on the same project, you're co-workers will kick your @$$ if you write crap code.

[blitzwing]

Yeah, I was a bit vague with that. By cleaning it up, I mean cleaning up my overall coding skills, not a specific app. Basically I want to learn the rough stuff to the point where I can get things working. After that I can polish future applications while I'm writing them.

[jllydgnt]

Listen to superwormy about sloppy code. My main beef with wysiwyg editors (esp. FrontPage - I would take a full-on kick in the crotch if it would make FrontPage disappear forever) is that the HTML they generate is usually really sloppy and nearly unreadable, which is bad when you are trying to add PHP to it.

[stolzyboy]

you are a guy right?

i wouldn't take a full on kick in the crotch for anything, except......

maybe......

a......

hmmmm............


nope, wouldn't do it

[superwormy]

ROFL, I agree with stolzyboy on that one :-)

And I can speak from experience there too, I've been there, done that, ( not by choice, martial arts class ) NEVER want to do it again :-)

[mystrymaster]

dreamweaver MX is meant for the buisiness taht doesn't have any developers just simply html coders and graphic designers it will allow those to use basic PHP knowledge and allow them to have some form of dynamic site with basic PHP interaction - fromsomeone who is just starting to learn PHP I could see why this would worry them -But use PHP as a gateway into programming and always expand on your skills and you will be fine.

Contrary to how some people are treating you in this thread your conerns are real in this economy where companies are always looking at cutting cost usually the first thing to go is staff that can be replaced with a piece of software. This will allow some shops to do that. Your concern is real and is understood.

[jllydgnt]

I was totally serious.

[stolzyboy]

yeah they may cut some costs, but cutting staff or what not, but when they need something that Dreamweaver can't do, they will kick themselves in the arse wondering what to do, then they will blow loads of money contracting me to do the work for them since they canned their staffer

bring it on Macromedia try and replace us, good luck, if anything, as said before, you are helping us

[superwormy]

*THWACK!*

<high pitched squeeky voice>ouch!</high pitched squeky voice>

[stolzyboy]

damn that hurt, i felt it over here

the squeeky voice, i mean...

lol

[Hawkee]

I agree with Elizabeth and blitzwing that Dreamweaver does have its place. Four months ago, I would have agreed with the large majority of you by saying that Dreamweaver can't replace a text editor like vim or emacs. I used to work as a programmer for a University where the environment was very laid back and deadlines meant nothing. We had all the time in the world to make beautiful PHP code in vim, pulling in templates, experimenting with template classes like Smarty and having complete freedom to develop under any tool set.

Now 4 months later, I'm working for a private business developing applications that are meant to be out the door in completely unreasonable time frames with many more projects pushing behind those. Deadlines drive the company and every project needs to be complete before the next one can begin. I was forced to use Dreamweaver because of the amount of time it saves. I used to deplore HTML editors, thinking they lack flexibility and features. Right now I can't stop telling my friends how much I love Dreamweaver. Of course I still won't stray from my roots and usually have my documents opened in both vim and Dreamweaver. I have finally found a place for this program and am happy for it.

Every program has it's place. Some tools are stigmatized in a particular way which more or less can make or break a product. I'm not trying to say Dreamweaver is great or even something you should use, but I'm trying to say for a particular situation, don't count it out because sometimes you never know...

[stolzyboy]

yeah for html it can be a time saver, but for point and click php applications, NOPE, ain't gonna happen

sure there may be point and click contact forms, emailers, etc...

little things like that, but decent custom apps dreamweaver isn't up to the task

another of my .02 cents

[ahundiak]

Hawkie,
Thanks for commenting. I was hoping that someone who appearently uses dream weaver on a routine basis would offer their opinion. It's kind of silly for php developers to be so hostile against a product that seems to have used to develop quite a few sites.

Of couse, I'll bet on the dw forums, php is considered to be something for simple amateur sites while real developers use dw.

[superwormy]

See my issue with Dreamweaver is this... I used to use Dreamweaver for some initial layout, cause I thought it saved time...

Then I got a good handle on HTML, and now I can handcode things faster than I can do them in Dreamweaver.

The big issue with Dreamweaver was that when you ( or maybe its just me, I'll say when I instead :-) ) got into any kinda of even a slighty complicated layout, it would move things automatically around on me, or end up with a table or column 2 or three pixels off leaving a big gap down the center of my page, or insert piles of useless little empty columns and rows on me when I was moving things around. That really pissed me off.

Granted, that was Dreamweaver 4, maybe its improved... but for now, I'm faster by hand than by Dreamweaver, and its cleaner by hand as well.

I do think Dreamweaver is a great place to start learning HTML, because its reasonably good HTML that it produces and if you dont understand HTML yet, you can study what Dreamweaver has created and learn from it.

On another note, does Dreamweaver MX have support for actually parsing PHP documents, like if I put an include() statement in a PHP document and open in in Dreamweaver MX, will it actually include that file so taht I can see what it looks like the layout window of Dreamweaver?

[stolzyboy]

<?
echo $superwormy;
?>

[Hawkee]

Right now Dreamweaver has minimal support for PHP and it definitely doesn't parse any PHP code. You still need to be running Apache to take care of that. What it does offer is the ability to copy and paste little snippets of PHP code and place them throughout a layout. This is mildly helpful, but it doesn't compare to programming in vim. It also has some templated statements like:
<?php if() { ?>
<?php else { ?>
and simply <?php echo ?>
I use these from time to time, but only for very simple actions like manipulating data that the user sees after data has been pulled from the database. You can also use these to check form data, but I could very easily live without them.

I believe Dreamweaver also has a PHP library of functions, but I haven't looked into this and feel it's not worth the effort to browse the library when I can simply type the function out or look it up on php.net

- Hawkee

[mystrymaster]

Originally posted by stolzyboy
yeah for html it can be a time saver, but for point and click php applications, NOPE, ain't gonna happen

sure there may be point and click contact forms, emailers, etc...

little things like that, but decent custom apps dreamweaver isn't up to the task

another of my .02 cents


Think about it though - Dreamweaver is not looking to target the company who has hired the developers and coders to generate a complete custom website with tons of database interaction and custom applications happening. It is targeting the smaller buisiness with a more relaxed atmosphere or that doesn't have the technical scope to have a team of developers. So the point and click contact forms and emailers and such are exactly what they are looking for and if enough people use this with some knowledge of php they will start writing there own libraries of functions like wizards for working with db's and such.

[jllydgnt]

Superwormy, my experiences with Dreamweaver are identical to yours. I never feel like I have full control. And I agree, I am faster or at least as fast by hand. DreamWeaver would probably be faster, but I always end up fighting with it on anything more than just a simple layout. By the way, I have Dreamweaver MX.

[Davidc316]

I urge anyone who has not checked out Dreamweaver MX to visit:

http://www.macromedia.com/software/dreamweaver/productinfo/tutorials/gettingstarted/

As I said earlier, I found it very complicated to use and have no plans of switching to it... but I'm sure you'll agree- it's very different from Dreamweaver 4.

(kinda reminds me of the differences between XP and Windows 95. I think it's on that same kind of scale.)

------

PS- thanks for the advice on this thread so far!

[stolzyboy]

a lot of my clients are 10-15 person staff, and we do a lot of intranet work for them (keep track of billing, employees, online apps into databases, etc...)

lemme know when "Dreamweaver MX" can even think of doing that point and click

i would consider this as a small company

and really how often do you need a whole development team when doing something, even if it is rather large

[Davidc316]

Pleae let me stress...

I'm not fighting on behalf of Dreamweaver MX here.

On the contrary I've already said that I wouldn't want to use it.
For all it's good points, I found it to be very complicated and basically too much effort.

I'd rather spend my time learning PHP than learning Dreamweaver MX.

The thing is... one or two people have said on this thread that Dreamweaver does NOT generate PHP script. I was merely providing a link to a site which verifies that not only can Dreamweaver MX generate script (all be it, "bad" script), but it can generate many different types of script. You literally click what type of programming language you want your site to have from a drop down menu.

Now I don't have the authority to talk in depth about PHP OR Dreamweaver MX, but I'd be very interested to hear the opinion of someone who knows both inside out.

[Sxooter]

I too have had the same experience with dreamweaver before MX came out, it was not very good at getting along with embedded code, and made some pretty ugly tables (code wise).

MX is another story. It seems it was really planned out and works pretty well.

And I'm not a fan of GUI editors (I run Linux on my workstation, and edit in pico for chrissake... ;) )

[superwormy]

Theres a HUGE difference between ' generating PHP scripts ' and modifying set templates of PHP scripts that programmers have already built into a program.

Dreamweaver MX DOES NOT generate scripts. Dreamweaver has stuff like this:

Make an IF / ELSE statement
Heres the condition
Heres what to do if it returns TRUE
Heres what to do if it doesnt


Thats only a template, Dreamweaver knows, OK, put the condition between the ( and ) after the IF

Put the returns TRUE part after the first {

Put the otherwise part after the } else {



That is NOT generating code. Thats applying a template to data a user provides.

[stolzyboy]

<?
for ($i = 0; $i = $num_superwormy_post_mx; $i++)
{
echo $i . "point(s) for " . $superwormy;
}
?>

[superwormy]

ROFL stolzyboy, you're, my new best friend, personal hero, and just a plain ole' cool guy :-)

[BuzzLY]

Wow... I step away for one day, and this thread explodes!

I think the most valuable thing to take away from this discussion is that there are a lot of tools out there, but no tool is going to be able to replace human ingenuity. Dreamweaver is a good tool. I have used it myself to generate an HTML page from scratch quickly -- especially if it involves tables with lots of rowspan and colspan attributes!

Back to my chef analogy... a mixer is not going to make me a chef, but a chef will occasionally use a mixer if needed. It's a tool, good for a specific job. There will never be a kitchen appliance that can replace a chef, and there will never be a computer program that can replace a software / web designer.

By "never" I mean a very long time... I would love to be alive the day a Star Trek computer can write me a program for the Holodeck. I'll never come out. And by never, I mean never.

[stolzyboy]

Hey BuzzLY,

Welcome Back.....

And are you trying to tell me that when I pick up my cordless mouse and say, "Computer, computer", it really ISN'T doing anything for me, crap I thought all this time that when i picked up my mouse to talk to it and it crashed, it thought I was an invalid voice authenticated user and would proceed to be unusable.

Hmmm.....

Maybe I'll have to call Captain Pacard??

[superwormy]

Dear Macromedia, creators of Dreamweaver MX, after hearing about how Dreamweaver 'generates' PHP code so well, I think your next version of Dreamweaver should be able to generate holodeck programs like in Star Trek. I'd like a holodeck program in Hawaii surrounded by beautiful PHP nerd babes...

[jllydgnt]

One of the scenes that was left on the cutting room floor from the first Matrix movie was a very moving scene in which Morpheus explains to Neo how the Matrix was developed entirely in Dreamweaver MX. So there, go ahead and waste your time learning to program.

[Sxooter]

Originally posted by jllydgnt
One of the scenes that was left on the cutting room floor from the first Matrix movie was a very moving scene in which Morpheus explains to Neo how the Matrix was developed entirely in Dreamweaver MX. So there, go ahead and waste your time learning to program.

That plot twist has a strange Terminator / skynet feel to it.

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by jllydgnt
One of the scenes that was left on the cutting room floor ... how the Matrix was developed entirely in Dreamweaver MX. And that explains why it was left on the cutting room floor. That's asking a lot of the moviegoer- to believe that one :)

-Elizabeth

[stolzyboy]

Dreamweaver MX would have a hard time making a Laurel and Hardy movie

[jllydgnt]

They don't have a slapstick module?

[stolzyboy]

even if they would have a slapstick module, Dreamweaver wouldn't know what to do with it

[mystrymaster]

yes that 10-15 organization is a small company however they did not try to do it on there own which is the audience.

They knew they had no idea how to do what they wanted to do so they contracted a developer who knew how to do it. Once again you are not the target for dreamweaver

[stolzyboy]

right I'm not the target, but companies of that size are more apt to out-source than to stick someone on that project to learn dreamweaver and waste their time and money, it is better for them to give some money to a company that knows what they are doing

[Sxooter]

A good layout / design tool for the graphic arts team is a godsend, especially if it creats fairly nice html so you can just stick your dynamic code in the middle, replace the forms with dynamic forms and go.

Where I work we have a kick ass graphic department so I really never have to do more than design a white background black text application (I call it 3270 for the web style ;) and incorporate and their layout together.

They use many tools I don't understand, but you won't see them posting here about it, they aren't PHP developers any more than I'm a graphic artist. :)

[mystrymaster]

depending stolz - think about it how many times have you seens smaller companies IT guy is the guy who knows how to program his VCR - when companies first start or they remain smaller family type buisiness' they are much more likely to take advantage of the resources at hand then to spend money paying someone else to do it.

Besides Dreamweaver MX or any incarnation of it is more appropraite for people to use who aren't comfortable with the code itself. Just like people who use Linux say Windows sucks yet Windows is the key to the fact that we can have jobs doing this for a living.

Dreamweaver and tools like it allow the masses to gain a little bit of knowledge into the world we call home and then it's up to the user to decide if they want to truly learn.

[stolzyboy]

yeah, maybe, but what i have seen of IT guys, they are just plain too damn busy to be messing with learning dreamweaver or the like and learning what we do to even do a simple website, its not just using dreamweaver to make the code, you need some graphics smarts also, and well then you pumped how much money into dreamweaver and photoshop, and still have to let the IT waste his own time and your own learning graphics/html/php and the like their too, i mean people go to school to learn this stuff, not everyone is going to be able to do this

however, if Dreamweaver and Macromedia can sucker peeps into buying this stuff, than more power to them

[mystrymaster]

yeah but usually the "IT guy" and I use that term loosely is a guy who would jump at the chance to learn something else - even on there own time.

I can't stand it as I just think the code that it writes is awful but there is a place for it.


Just think we were both bickering back and forth and we both agree on the same thing. :)

[stolzyboy]

yeah, that is pretty funny isn't it

[Creative210]

Dreamweaver is not all that. Its great for tables, but thats about it. Trust me anyone off the streets can not create a great website.

I know that for a fact.

[stolzyboy]

echo, echo, echo..........................

or an IT guy with no time, right mystrymaster, LOL

[mystrymaster]

LOL ha ha ha very funny :)

[dalecosp]

I'm liking BuzzLY's take on this issue.

At the local Wal*Mart SuperCenter, they have a machine that produces donuts ... an assembly line, automated. You dump in the ingredients and press a button. Watch a while, and you get great donuts. But, if you want something different, that multi-grand-$$$ machine won't do it.

Think DreamWeaver.

Now, on the other hand, last week my mom came over and made strawberry shortcakes. And pies. And a number of other things. We didn't have to reprogram her, replace any modules or parts, or even teach her anything she didn't know --- she spent 35 years teaching kids to cook and sew in home economics classes in high schools.

Think Master Programmer.

There's a place for both. My mom doesn't love Wal*Mart enough to go and make their donuts, daily, in large quantities, and Wal*Mart doesn't love me enough to come and bake whatever goes with whatever is lying around my refrigerator.

If your client wants a bunch of donuts, grab a copy of DreamWeaver and go for it... :D

If they want a chef, read up and apply for the job..... ;)

[BuzzLY]

I don't get it... Dreamweaver makes donuts now????

Not to go OT on you all... but aren't you noticing the "dumbing down of America" that's going on?

I enjoy watching the show Lingo, on the Game Show Network (http://www.gsn.com). If you have never seen it, it's a show where the contestants try to guess 5 letter words, and are told when a letter is correct. If the word is not a real word, they get buzzed, and the play goes over to the other team.

Anyway, one of the words a contestant guessed was "donut."

Now, I'm one of those people that would greatly benefit from interactive TV; I yell at the contestants when they say something stupid. Needless to say, I yelled at this girl, and told her, "that's not how you spell doughnut, you idiot!" Imagine my surprise when I saw them indicating which letters were in the correct spots, instead of buzzing her.

At what point did "donut" become a legal spelling of the word? Even Merriam Webster gives the following definition:

Main Entry: do·nut
Pronunciation: 'dO-(")n&t
variant of DOUGHNUT

I don't know about you, but I find this to be a very scary trend in our society today. When I went through school, I remember that English had "rules." Nowadays, if enough people make the same mistake, they simply create a new rule or spelling to make it correct.

Ok. Sorry. Back to the topic at hand... :D

Excellent analogy, dalecosp. Mom = Master Programmer. I like it :)