How Often do YOU check the manual before posting! [Archive]

Sxooter

05-30-2003, 12:31 PM

Sxooter's super eazy, smooth and cheezy, fast and breezy way to look things up:

1: Install apache, the PHP and Postgresql docs, and htdig.
2: index your documentation
3: Profit!

hehe.

Seriously though, with the phrase searching in the 3.2beta htdig you can find exactly what you're looking for, plus you can search multiple documentation collections at once or restrict to just the one you want.

And I am one of those folks who reads the manual from front to back, just for fun...

stolzyboy

05-30-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Sxooter
And I am one of those folks who reads the manual from front to back, just for fun...

you should try reading it back to front after a pint or so of Jim Beam, it is REALLY interesting then, algorythms really look like words when backwards and thru glazed eyes

Elizabeth

05-30-2003, 01:06 PM

I don't know about reading the manual from front to back- I'm too impatient for that. But I will ALWAYS exhaust all resources before posting.. that includes TFM, the forums, and google in general, if I think I'll have any luck at all. In fact I could say the same thing about asking questions in general- I guess I'm afraid of looking even more like an idiot than I already do :D

-Elizabeth

leatherback

05-30-2003, 01:41 PM

Hey Elizabeth,

Eerh.. If you are afraid of looking like an idiot.. Maybe you should replace your picture by some drawing or something

:D :D

J.

Elizabeth

05-30-2003, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by leatherback
Hey Elizabeth,

Eerh.. If you are afraid of looking like an idiot.. Maybe you should replace your picture by some drawing or something Hardy har har! :D
Hey, what a great idea- I'll get right on it ;)

-Elizabeth

leatherback

05-30-2003, 03:33 PM

Well...
Sometimes I have good ideas. It took me some time to figure it out though. Then I recalled the reason why I did not put a picture up.. Everybody already KNOWS I am an idiot..

J.

Elizabeth

05-30-2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by leatherback
Everybody already KNOWS I am an idiot.. Hey, cool you must be a blonde like me! We rock! :)

-Elizabeth

stolzyboy

05-30-2003, 03:59 PM

Leatherback,

You only WISH you could draw as good as Elizabeth's young kid to make that avatar!!!!!

leatherback

05-30-2003, 04:01 PM

Elizabeth: Nope.. Not blonde. Sorry. Brown/pepper/sootobeGrey!!

Stolzyboy.. Yup: I am jeaulous, and not afraid to admit it.

But then again.. I am an mentally overloadedecologist, not an artist!

J.

SP8600

05-30-2003, 08:40 PM

The manual is great but the only problem with it is you have to know what your looking for so if you have no idea its pretty much impossible to check it first

stolzyboy

05-30-2003, 11:58 PM

ummm.........yeah if you are looking for string functions, do a "search", wow, yeah, search for string functions and you will be there, etc...

you can do that for just about anything

dalecosp

05-31-2003, 01:11 AM

I actually know a good tune for that, I think....

I generally read the manual while posting. Because the person I'm helping hasn't bothered to. So, in the best of traditions I picked up when I started visiting 'round here, I try to point it out.

Not always, I guess. Who's perfect. Certainly not me.

But I HAVE said for a long time...."Google is your friend...!!!!" :D:D

laserlight

05-31-2003, 02:40 AM

But I HAVE said for a long time...."Google is your friend...!!!!"

hmm... maybe then RTFM should mean "Read The Friendly Manual" to keep in line with Google's status? :D

dalecosp

05-31-2003, 09:26 AM

Perhaps. That's certainly better than the other way 'round... :D :D

bad76

05-31-2003, 01:47 PM

leatherback: the last word... :D
i just see that one guy vote "1"

(http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10241415)

see you

Bunkermaster

06-01-2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by The Chancer
Oops - and all this time I thought I had to Roger the French Maid ...
Originally posted by leatherback
"Pardon my french!"

Is this French weekend ? :D

BuzzLY

06-01-2003, 02:41 PM

Of course, RTFM is definitely required before posting. But I say, STFW is just as important. If I need help with something, I RTFM, then GOOGLE, Then search the forum to see if my question has been answered.

Which is why I don't ask a lot of questions. Not because I know PHP so well (I know a lot less than most of you probably think), but because I almost always find my answer.

Elizabeth

06-02-2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by BuzzLY
(I know a lot less than most of you probably think) No, we pretty much know that you don't know much.

<- ducks.

Just kidding of course Buzz we know you're really a PHP brainiac :)

Oh back to the "RTFM" discussion- I think perhaps some noobs think it means "Research That For Me"

-Elizabeth

leatherback

06-02-2003, 03:33 PM

Haha

Yeah elizabeth. You must be right about that!

I am surprised by the stats though... look at that! Almost everybody is reading the manual before posting. Maybe it is correct what my grandfather used to say when he was teaching in University: I am happy if you only learn two things from me... Reading and listening.....

stolzyboy

06-02-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by leatherback
I am surprised by the stats though... look at that! Almost everybody is reading the manual before posting. Maybe it is correct what my grandfather used to say when he was teaching in University: I am happy if you only learn two things from me... Reading and listening.....

i think some noobs think that reading the manual means going to www.php.net and then closing the browser

that counts as RTFM, right?

LOL

Bunkermaster

06-02-2003, 04:32 PM

I think our poll here is biased for peeps who post without RTFM are actually not posting in Echo Lounge much... Take weedpacket, buzzly, lizz, dalecosp and a few others and PHPBuilder is quite as a saturday night in a retirement house...

stolzyboy

06-02-2003, 11:30 PM

thats probably why it seems i am helping peeps that never post back after your help them, cuz they never stick around long enough, most of the time lately, it is more enjoyable to screw around in the echo lounge than help peeps who aren't appreciative anyway

nonetheless

i still help all day long anyway, its just more fun here

much more meaningless conversation that is good to talk about to get away from work

:)

dar-k

06-03-2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by BuzzLY
Of course, RTFM is definitely required before posting. But I say, STFW is just as important. If I need help with something, I RTFM, then GOOGLE, Then search the forum to see if my question has been answered.
Nuff said.

Originally posted by stolzyboy
thats probably why it seems i am helping peeps that never post back after your help them, cuz they never stick around long enough, most of the time lately, it is more enjoyable to screw around in the echo lounge than help peeps who aren't appreciative anyway
Read my mind.

Originally posted by stolzyboy
i still help all day long anyway, its just more fun here
While browsing the help forums I actually happen to find at least 3 or so threads I WON'T ignore...per week.

Elizabeth

06-03-2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by stolzyboy
it is more enjoyable to screw around in the echo lounge than help peeps who aren't appreciative anyway
My sentiments exactly :)

-Elizabeth

leatherback

07-06-2003, 07:49 AM

Oh..
But.. But...
Don't you all worry so much about all the people here who cannot read? They cannot read the manual and have to post stupid questions. And.. You all get paid to support people right! <Deuh>

I found very nice thread last night, straight from the handbook "PhP support: When to mention the existence of a manual", in PhPbuilder.NoSupportNoMore($person):

http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=10246132

:/

J.

scoppc

07-14-2003, 12:36 PM

My recent posts on PHP Help are mostly guiding others to search the manual or go googling. Well, so much different from earlier posts where I wrote the code for em. :)

I prefer to download the HTML version of the Manual, save it to my other partition, bookmark it in my favorites folder and access it easily everytime I need to look up on something. Handy!

dartcol

07-15-2003, 04:53 AM

I read the manual, then scratch my head a bit, then read it another couple of times and do a bit more head-scratching gradually easing the deep furrows between my eyes into mere lines. Then I realize, to my horror, that I need to put about five areas of the manual together. My brain generally fuses at this point so I go and make a cup of tea or kill some evil samurai on shinsangokumuso (PS2 - not real life ....).

After calming down, I return to the computer and do a google. After following a few leads I make it to phpbuilder and do a search hoping someone has the ability and the tenacity to have already pieced together something along the lines of what I need. I'll then try to cod(g)e it all together. Failing that, time to post.

Following this system I haven't had to post for help for a while. I keep coming on to try and help but find some higher-brained individual has already answered the question (usually with far more efficient code than I could squash together - but I try!)

Hail to all those who try. Ya-boo to those who don't.

Xakep_INC

07-16-2003, 03:57 PM

When I have a problem, I try to solve it alone. Then when I can't, I search the manual. If the help isn't there, I go to google, and to several PHP sites and forums I know, and search there. If it won't help, I try solving the problem again. And search everywhere again. If it won't help, I post on few forums, and play a game/go outside for a walk to calm down abit.

BuzzLY

07-29-2003, 02:10 AM

<rånt pïtch=hïgh>
Ìf rêcênt pøsts årê åny ïndïcåtïøn, thên måny øf thê 92.31% årê f***ïng lïårs!

RTFM = Rêåd thê Flïppïn' Månùål!!
STFW = Sêårch thê Flïppïn' Wêb!!
ÚYFB = ÚSÈ YØÚR FLÌPPÌN' BRÁÌN!!

Ì'm sørry, bùt Ì'm jùst gêttïng fêd ùp wïth fïndïng thê ånswêrs tø pøsts by døïng å 30 sêcønd Gøøglê løøkùp. Ì'm nøt døïng ånythïng mørê thån å nøvïcê prøgråmmêr shøùld dø BÈFØRÈ åskïng qùêstïøns ïn thê førùms. Ìt's rêålly gêttïng øld, pêøplê, sø PLÈÁSÈ, Ì bêg øf yøù, rêåd thê månùål, sêårch thê wêb, ånd spênd åt LÈÁST 30 mïnùtês tryïng tø fïx thê prøblêm yøùrsêlf bêførê åskïng før hêlp.

Thånk yøù!
</rånt>

Wøw, ït sùrê wås å bêåùtïfùl dåy tødåy, hùh?

dartcol

07-29-2003, 02:35 AM

Frankly, I feel sorry for these people without the sense to search. They're obviously so lacking in sense and consideration that they're probably never going to amount to much. Even if they do, then they've done it off the backs of others which has no sense of worth.

I started out like everyone else scratching around (and still do occasionally) but by experimenting a bit and reading a lot I'm finding I can work out by myself a lot of the problems I meet now, which is far more enjoyable than sitting around waiting for someone kind enough to donate their time again and again ... and again ... and again .. ad infinitum. And the best thing is that it's become part of my job too. How can anyone who leans on others to constantly solve their problems expect to be able to use this skill and get paid for it? It's their loss.

One solution would be to set up a sticky that people can add links to repeated/lazy/plain idiotic requests that other members have submitted? The person in question gets a polite request to desist and are placed on a list that monitors them for the next 10 postings. The posting gets deleted or assigned to a sticky of FAQs as already started by jayant. More work - yes. Might reduce the long term load on the server though.

bad76

07-29-2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by stolzyboy
it is more enjoyable to screw around in the echo lounge than help peeps who aren't appreciative anyway

Originally posted by elizabeth
My sentiments exactly

Originally posted by Buzzly
Ìf rêcênt pøsts årê åny ïndïcåtïøn, thên måny øf thê 92.31% årê f***ïng lïårs!

wow! Ok, some guys may be just lamer, but what about
this other ?? (just getting today's post...)

Originally posted by Manual
Mission accomplished, thanx a lot guys

Originally posted by Fizzwizz
That's the way!!! Thanks .....

Originally posted by waxwax
so easy... works like a dream.

you made my day!

It's fun, not?

stolzyboy

07-29-2003, 02:12 PM

yes, it's fun, but when you get meatheads that don't answer back, whether it worked or not, you get sick of even trying to help people

BuzzLY

07-29-2003, 03:34 PM

Yes, bad76, there are good posts and responses, to be sure. Unfortunately, a few are not, and those are the ones I am ranting about. I don't even mind if I don't get feedback from those that I help. It's when people ask questions that are EASILY found in the ONLINE manual (which everyone that posts here has access to) or a quick Google/Yahoo search (ditto on the availablility) that gets annoying.

I don't even mind the register_globals questions all that much, because PHP kinda sneaked that in on people upgrading past 4.2, and not everyone knows about it.

As long as you RTFM, STFW, and UYFH, I am happy to help you 'til the cows come home.

stolzyboy

07-29-2003, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by BuzzLY
As long as you RTFM, STFW, and UYFH, I am happy to help you 'til the cows come home.

don't forget UTSL

Weedpacket

07-29-2003, 05:26 PM

Could I ask how many of those good responses were in relation to advice that helped them with their code, and how many were to having their work done for them and handed to them on a platter?

bad76

07-30-2003, 04:16 AM

Yes,
good question. You can easily view searching for bad76 msg.

Litterally, just for the one the responses is in relation to advice that helped them with their code.

But i think for all this (this morning another one is adding, Nodi...) is the one you say.

One i've just correct this poor code if($email != '') ."E-Mail: ".$email."\n"; into if($email != '') mesg.="E-Mail: ".$email."\n"; . My hint is also bugged and him has correct all.

Second i've putted to search for gethostbyaddr() and do it.

The last, my preferred answer :D, i've just hint to use UPPER() function of mysql.

Ok, if they search more deep in manuals, at last found it. But i think that people has not enough experience to know there are this kind of function:
Ex:
I've used gethostbyaddr() function with every kind of programming language, it's a base function born with Berkley's socket, in the night of time.
But any noob can not know (it's a noob...) it and make a useless search in manual for any hint asking about a "canonical output" (?!?).

Yes it's important look at the manual, but if you don't know what you are searching...

Surely, next way he needs a function of this kind, he can look usefull in the manual. So even for the string function of select statement...

see you

Weedpacket

07-30-2003, 08:15 AM

Oh yes, I'll direct them to the relevant bit of the manual if they look lost in the hundred-odd chapters of functions (and dozens of other chapters) that are there (though, funnily enough, network-type functions are to be found under "Network Functions"). I just which they'd read the blessed thing at some stage. Not necessarily the entire thing from cover to cover (I haven't even read the entire manual yet) but at least enough to get a feel for where things might be when they go to look for something.

But how often have you seen a bit of code posted in response to a question, and the original poster came back with pointing to a use of the "?:" operator and asked "what does this do?"

I'd still much rather give them a manual link than just the answer - in the folorn hope that while they're reading the answer there something else might catch their eye and they'll read and learn that bit too.

Jeb.

07-30-2003, 09:02 AM

Evening all!

Most of what I think about situations like this has already been said - and said well.

For me, it's rare for me to answer somebody's question straight out and silver-platter it for them. In the event that I do, I always post exactly what I did, why I did it, and how it relates to the problem they had (even though 9/10 times most of them won't even read it *sigh*). I guess it's just there to benefit people with the same problem who have the nouse to search.

I'm not a huge fan of just giving someone a manual link and saying "RTFM". I like to give them a link, and give them some indication as to what to look for. Eg, "Have a look at this page, and read the notice about the XYZ function and it's return value", or "Look at the return type of XYZ to see why you can't use it in a foreach() loop".

Myself, I always RTFM, STFW, TOTS (think outside the square :p) and UMFH before I post. I rarely ask questions, but, like Buzzly, not because I "know everything", but because almost every question I could have about a language as popular as PHP must have an answer somewhere - it's just a matter of finding it.

My 0.02c.

bad76

07-30-2003, 10:28 AM

originally posted from weedpacket
But how often have you seen a bit of code posted in response to a question, and the original poster came back with pointing to a use of the "?:" operator and asked "what does this do?"

Well.. may be when i'm 3581 messages old, i'll think this too. :6

originally posted from jeb
every question I could have about a language as popular as PHP must have an answer somewhere - it's just a matter of finding it.

You can find in phpbuilder.

BuzzLY

07-30-2003, 02:32 PM

Well... as just an example (and the one that just so happened to induce my rant in the first place), check out this thread (http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=10389914).

First of all, it wasn't a question about PHP, MySQL, or Apache. It's a Javascript issue. Second of all, it's about validating a telephone number. I did a google search, and the very first link gave you an excellent script for validating phone numbers.

That's not such a bad thing... I mean, the guy might not have thought about using the exact same search term ("javascript phone number validation"). But if you look at the post, they put up their code, and ask "where, how and what is the php code..."

There was no indication that this person even TRIED to find a solution.

And, of course, after I gave them the answer, I got no response as to whether it helped them or not. Of course, I was a little snotty in my response, but a simple "ok, that worked, thanks" would not have been out of place, I think.

This wasn't the only example. There is this post (http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=10389892), too. In fact, that one didn't even ask a question. A simple statement:
I have a table that displays dynamically generated data from a database to the user. I need to put this information into a an excel spreadsheet report.That's it. No "please help, I'm a noob," or "any suggestions?" And that is the ONLY post this person has ever made. Post count: 1. No response to the half dozen people that answered him, including me.

It's enough to drive ya mad, I tell ya!

BuzzLY

07-30-2003, 02:35 PM

... and since I responded to this dormant thread, the count of "Always" reading the manual has gone up to 93.1%!!!! LIARS!!!

Unless, of course, the only people responding to that poll are in fact those that read manuals.

goldbug

07-30-2003, 02:44 PM

What is manual!? How do I RTFM? I'm a manual n00b! Do the thinking for me!

Intended as sarcasm.

dalecosp

07-30-2003, 03:33 PM

Anyone know how, what, or where I could find the function to make a shopping cart?

I tried "What is the function to make a shopping cart" in the forum search, but I didn't see anything there...

----------------------------
dalecosp
Clueless Newbie!
******************
Check out Clueless Newbies dot com!! (www.php.net/manual/en/)

:DYeah, well, actually, I had a fairly brilliant 4 paragraph post in the reply form last night when the site went "crash!!!" :mad: ... so, BuzzLY, is what finally got posted to this thread what you tried to post @10 times last night? Lucky you, man ... if I can stick my thoughts back together, I just *might* have something worthwhile to say ... :(

BuzzLY

07-30-2003, 04:25 PM

No... I pretty much lost that post.

On a positive note, though, I have been teaching myself how to shuffle poker chips with one hand, like the pros do.

Unemployment is a wonderful thing -- you learn all sorts of new things about yourself.

bad76

07-31-2003, 03:38 AM

There was no indication that this person even TRIED to find a solution.

...

No response to the half dozen people that answered him, including me.

You are rigth about these, i agree, and even i use excel report every day on my php script i'vent answered him. But my think is that not all is like this.

Look:

http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=10390788#post10390788

It's a similar link, the guy not search so deep and don't get any solution. But gived an hint, him find the solution and learn to put mysql_error() on its script (yes, i'm a mysql_error() fan :p ). And reply too. It's a good guy.

And there are a lot in this site..

[edit] i don't say this because i think i'm a god, i just disagree the dropping spirit of page 3 of this thread... [edit]

bad76

07-31-2003, 04:34 AM

Ok Buzzly, when i look this kind of post

http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10249513

i completely agree with you...

And only after two post...

http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10249515

First i've maked a cross link as answer :p,
but then i've added a right link too, i'm good...

WOW this is my favourite for now!!! :eek:
http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=10391326

Weedpacket

07-31-2003, 06:04 AM

Errr, the thread appears to be mutating (http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10240313)...

bad76

07-31-2003, 06:18 AM

:p Oooops :p

My page 3 start with stolzyboy post...

http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?postid=10354628

It's the confirm that i'm saying, i'm not a god :D:):D

epimeth

07-31-2003, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by Weedpacket
But how often have you seen a bit of code posted in response to a question, and the original poster came back with pointing to a use of the "?:" operator and asked "what does this do?"
[/B]

you mean like this?

<?php if($true) :?>
<html>
<somehtml>
</html>
<?php endif; ?>

stolzyboy

07-31-2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by epimeth
you mean like this?

<?php if($true) :?>
<html>
<somehtml>
</html>
<?php endif; ?>

no he means like this

<?
for($i=99; $i>=1; $i--){
$s = $i > 1?"s":""; // ###### like on this line ######
echo "<p>$i Bottle$s of beer on the wall, $i bottle$s of beer.<br>";
echo "Take one down and pass it around,<br>";
echo ($i-1)." bottle$s of beer on the wall.</p>\n";
}
?>

epimeth

07-31-2003, 04:19 PM

oh!!! you mean the

$booleanexp?insert-this-if-true:otherwise

now I understand :p

Weedpacket

07-31-2003, 05:41 PM

Well what is it called? "Ternary boolean operator" is ambiguous and clunky and not even all that accurate....

Bunkermaster

07-31-2003, 07:28 PM

I might add that it is a major maintenance failure reason... known tricky structure to say the least especially when you start embedding them to some levels

epimeth

07-31-2003, 11:02 PM

<table bgcolor="<?($type==1)?'blue':($type==2)?'green':($type==3)?'red':'yellow'?>">

yay!

bad76

08-01-2003, 03:44 AM

Originally posted by Weedpacket
Well what is it called? "Ternary boolean operator" is ambiguous and clunky and not even all that accurate....
It's called "Operator Conditional"...

Someone make a poll to re-wear bunkermaster's helmet!!!
:D :D :D :D

Merve

08-01-2003, 11:08 AM

I know this sounds dumb, but in your poll, maybe you could put the option: No, I don't check the manual at all

Not that that applies to me, because I looked through the php.net manual at least 100 times before posting my question about trignometry, but now that's resolved, and I'm just thinking, what a dumb thread!

Merve

08-01-2003, 11:14 AM

For those who don't want to sift throught the oodles of info in the manual, there are php tutorials at Webmonkey (hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey). So maybe you should look there for an answer to a simple question. That's where I learned PHP from, but it only really helps newbies.

P.S. Should someone tell Stolzyboy that his avatar isn't working? Or is it meant to be that way?