is html a programming language

[tuf-web.co.uk]

in a despute with a fellow poster i have come to the conclusion that this is the way to solve this

we agreed that html is design

but i still think its a programming language

the basic web programming language

[jebster]

HTML is a markup language! ;)

Hence the name "hypertext markup language"

Markup "The collection of tags that describe the specifications of an electronic document, as for formatting."

Programming "A set of coded instructions that enables a machine, especially a computer, to perform a desired sequence of operations."

[Weedpacket]

As someone who has experience in formal language and computability theories, I can state with certainty that HTML is not a programming language. It doesn't do anything, except serve as input to another program.

[clearbreach]

I've met people who would call HTML a "programming language" just so they can call themselves a "programmer". For whatever reason, being able to correctly use <b> and <i> tags with their fellow closing tags justifies as high-end programming talent and ability.

I'm guessing this is quite like the same person who actually voted 'Yes' on the poll. :p

[pyro]

lol... Actually, people using <b> and <i> need to read up on CSS. :p Nope, HTML is not a programming language by any means...

[laserlight]

Well, if someone designs a new programming language and names it "HTML", then HTML is a programming language.

Then again, what about say, using HTML to create drafts of TV programmes (insane), or event programmes (more likely, though a little crazy too)?
Then wouldnt HTML be a "programming" language? :D

But as jebster and Weedpacket pointed out, on the lines of computer science, HTML is not a programming language.

[dalecosp]

Markup language --- tells the browser program how to format data...jebster & weed are telling it right... :)

[tuf-web.co.uk]

well in reply to this all i have to say is

MY ICT TEACHER IS COMPLETELY STUPID

lol, well its true

he knows nothing at all, its his fault i'm dumb :(

i have an excuse :p

[planetsim]

If his stupid, maybe you should inform him of this thread.

[BuzzLY]

Actually, a program is a list of commands intended to perform a specific purpose. The first computer programs were written as a single list of instructions. At one point, they were simple holes punched into cards.

Technically, HTML can be considered a program, as it's a list of instructions given to a browser to perform specific tasks: "Start a table here." "End the row here." "This is the end of the page." The browser is simply the interpreter of those commands.

There are many different types of programs. When it was realized that writing lists of instructions was not reliable, and extremely unproductive, the concept of procedures, or functions, was introduced. Programs that support this concept are called procedural languages.

Another major step in programming came with the advent of objects. This refers to Object Oriented Programming, or OOP.

I personally believe that Markup can be thought of as a style of programming. In the strictest sense, HTML can be thought of as a programming language.

HOWEVER...

When people say "programming" nowadays, it is generally accepted that there is some sort of procedure involved at the least. HTML does NOT supply any sort of procedure, so the general concensus is that HTML is not a programming language.

==================

What is my point? Well, when viewed from a certain perspective, HTML can possibly be viewed as a programming language. Before calling your teacher stupid, approach him and tell him this:

"If HTML is a programming language, how does it differ from other programming languages such as C++ or Visual Basic? I don't understand how a markup language can be considered procedural. There are no functions. So why is it considered a 'programming' language?"

Please don't take this the wrong way -- it is in no way directed at you specifically:

I think one of the problems with our educational system today is not so much the teachers, but the students. More specifically, the fact that students today learn through the media and even their parents that teachers "are just people, and don't deserve any respect." When I went through school, I never thought any of them were stupid. I never questioned their credentials, and as far as I knew, they were the subject matter experts in the areas they were teaching me.

The trend I see today is that kids are told to "question everything." On the surface, it seems like a good thing (there are so many bad people out there taking advantage of children), but I believe that in the long run, it's having a negative effect. Don't question your teacher's ability to teach. TEST it. ASK him questions. Challenge him with intelligent debate. Don't turn your back on him and declare his stupidity. Show him that you are confused by his statement, and perhaps he will take the time to explore the issue with you further. He is a teacher, not a library or computer. His job is to help you learn, even if it means he must learn himself right along with you.

[epimeth]

well put, buzz....

the way I see it, html is definitely not a programming language... you are not 'programming' anything, just telling a program what text you want where and how it should look.

however, since html today includes tags with events, it can be considered a programming language. but then again, what happens once these events are fired are javascript or vbscript commands which are part of a programming language, not html itself.

So html is a markup language with programming language extensions, I guess....

[Weedpacket]

I'm sorry, but if it ain't Turing-universal, I just don't feel it qualifies as a "programming" language.

I should rephrase that better: a requirement of a programming language is that it be Turing Universal. PHP is a programming language, as are Javascript and PostScript. Haskell and Emacs LISP are programming languages, and so is POV-Ray's scene description language. Brainf*ck is a programming language and so is the OISC's instruction set.

HTML? Let me know when you can write a program in HTML that will return n+1 for a given n...

Just because it's a machine-readable language doesn't make it a programming language, any more than scanning a pencil sketch makes it "computer generated art".

[laserlight]

Technically, HTML can be considered a program

the browser and html parsing routines can be considered programs (or at least part of programs).

The html code itself would be the input to the program.

EDIT:
I agree with Weedpacket on that point.
Though I would note that technically no computer is Turing universal, due to physical limitations.
Still, that doesnt detract from the status of a programming language, I suppose.

[tuf-web.co.uk]

i agree with buzz that many teachers today are questioned

if they are questioned then the person questioning them, if they are wrong, just finds it harder to learn, they would be asking because they dont understand properly, and want to know why exactly what has been told to them is true.

in some of my lessions with him i have found that i and another member of my class know either more on the subject or the correct phrase.

i question people because i believe there is more to what they are telling us, i dont intent to become a bad person from this i am just trying to learn more.

and i cant go up to him and test him, because i have finished school now :D well i did about a month ago

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by laserlight
I agree with Weedpacket on that point.
Though I would note that technically no computer is Turing universal, due to physical limitations.
Still, that doesnt detract from the status of a programming language, I suppose. While true, I don't see it as PHP's fault that the server it's running on only has a 60GB hard drive :)

[scoppc]

I've been using HTML for 3 years now and start from the day I knew HTML till today, I dont dare to tell others that I am a programmer. Right after I have adequate knowledge in PHP, I am a programmer.

If HTML is a programming language, how bout XML, CSS, XHTML??

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by scoppc
If HTML is a programming language, how bout XML, CSS, XHTML?? Same as for HTML. However...
XML is a metalanguage - it's nothing on it's own, but instead a framework in which to design languages. It's certainly possible for those languages to be programming languages - XSLT is the first that springs to mind.

Hmm... that could be amusing: an XSLT program that takes a file of the form
<tgb verses="n"></tgb>and outputs the lyrics to "n Green Bottles".

[dalecosp]

originally posted by Weedpacket
Hmm... that could be amusing: an XSLT program that takes a file of the form

<tgb verses="n"></tgb>
and outputs the lyrics to "n Green Bottles". But that's a contest for another forum.... ;)

[Merve]

HTML isn't really a programming language. Neither is CSS. PHP is a programming language. It's that simple. Besides, CSS is kind of a part of HTML. It was made for the sole purpose of modifying HTML.

[elToro]

Actually CSS could be used to style other markup languages as well. But I know what you mean.

This thread seems a bit silly to me. Nearly everyone is going to say the same thing. HTML is a markup language. It defines structure, not behavior or even appearance. The fact that that identical markup could be correctly presented in different ways by different user agents suggests something very different than programming. It's not even comparable to something like PostScript.

[mzanimephp]

:o *coughtoldyousocough (http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=10383570#post10383570)*

[cyclops]

HTML is a Markup Language to format web-documents.

You cannot call it a programming-language due to the fact that all attributes are static and it can't compute or compile and is not interpretive.

Note the fact that HTML attributes can be modified afterwards by using Javascript, which on its turn is a programming-language.

[cyclops]

Edit : double post, I have a very bad ping today

[Damien B]

ROFLMAO!!!

Hypertext Mark-Up Language!!!

THIS IS THE FUNNIEST POLL I HAVE EVER SEEN!

I just can't emphasise the fact that I couldn't stop lauging while typing this reply!

You are not a HTML Programmer, rather a HTML Coder!

[BuzzLY]

It's all semantics. It just depends on what you mean by programmer.

If I tell my family that I am an HTML Coder, they might look at me in confusion. If I tell them that I program web pages, they understand. They don't really care about the definition of a "programmer." To them, a programmer is someone that types a bunch of gobbledy-gook on a computer.

[mzanimephp]

I agree with you BuzzLY, but we -the professionals know that the term "programmer" means something totally different.

And yes, this is kind of a funny poll. In the old days I always referred to stuff like C++ and Java as "programming", but HTML? Never.

[Damien B]

Haha, Buzzly, that's a unique perpective on the matter. Luckily my parents have at least some standing of computers, but I definately get what you are saying. I just tell computer illiterate people that I generate/make/create/design/develop web pages.

If you want to use a buzzword, use "web developer" that's my favourite. Buzz words are cool, I learning Computer Electrotechnology, which is a major buzzword, but really it's just basic Electricty and a bit of fixing computers. Keep on using those buzzwords, buzzy! :D

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by Damien B
If you want to use a buzzword, use "web developer" that's my favourite. I prefer that one as well; I'm not a designer; I do the stuff that - if everything is working - you never get to see. Kinda makes it hard to explain what exactly it is you do to laypeople. Or to web sites.


"I'm a web developer."
"Does that make you Spiderman?"

[Merve]

we -the professionals

Not all of us are professionals, definitely not me.

And I know some people who say that they're programmers because they know minimal HTML. They don't know how to make their webpages dynamic. They just think they're programmers because their typing a whole bunch of coding.

[BuzzLY]

So? Let them think they are programmers. To someone that doesn't know a thing about computers, a "web programmer" that codes HTML is an impressive thing. It's certainly not harming me in any way if he/she things they are a programmer.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by BuzzLY
So? Let them think they are programmers. To someone that doesn't know a thing about computers, a "web programmer" that codes HTML is an impressive thing. It's certainly not harming me in any way if he/she things they are a programmer. Except when it comes to remuneration ... it's not whether they think they're programmers or not, it's whether other people think they're programmers and can't tell the difference between one who knows was document.write() does and one who doesn't; and are thinking of hiring same. You know what I mean.

[laserlight]

perhaps not quite in terms of payment (unless it is a one-off contract), since the pseudo-web-programmer obviously wouldnt have the skills for it.

more like the job specs when hiring (and thus a salary), though the company should of course get details of the potential employee's skills rather than just basing on claims of web programming skills.

[Merve]

HTML is a markup language for sure, but it seems as if we're bashing HTML here. The web wouldn't be the web without HTML.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by Merve
HTML is a markup language for sure, but it seems as if we're bashing HTML here. The web wouldn't be the web without HTML. What do you mean, "we", primary-face? Who's bashing HTML?

[Merve]

originally posted by Weedpacket
What do you mean, "we", primary-face? Who's bashing HTML?
Sorry, my mistake.

[BuzzLY]

Originally posted by Weedpacket
Except when it comes to remuneration ... it's not whether they think they're programmers or not, it's whether other people think they're programmers and can't tell the difference between one who knows was document.write() does and one who doesn't; and are thinking of hiring same. You know what I mean. Only too well, unfortunately. Hopefully that will all change in the next week or so. Y'all keep your fingers collectively crossed for me

[4rxsid]

I think a common test is weather or not it (the language in question) can do math.

HTML can't do math...therefore it's not a programming language.

CSS can't do math....""

PHP can do math...therefore it is a programming language.

As far as I know...all programming language's can perform mathematical functions.

[BuzzLY]

I can do math. Does that make me a programming language?

[Merve]

yes it does. I program in BuzzLY all the time because it's much more efficient than Merve. I don't have access to Weedpacket yet because I haven't configured my server properly, but I'm sure I'll have a BuzzLY-Weedpacket-Moonglobe environment soon.

:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Weedpacket]

I think your logic's slipping, BuzzLY; just because A implies B is no reason to suspect that B implies A....


Originally posted by Merve
I'm sure I'll have a BuzzLY-Weedpacket-Moonglobe environment soon. If I were you I'd wait until Moonglobe 1.0 comes out; I understand the betas are still pretty unstable.

[Merve]

Argh! Keep with the times! 1.0 is out now! They're releasing 1.9.5beta soon.

As for Weedpacket and stolzyboy, Weedpacket has more functions, but stolzyboy has better error handling...I'm sure which one to use...Weedpacket 8.3 seems appealing, but stolzyboy 7.9 has syntax similar to PHP...this is a great debate!

:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Weedpacket]

Weedpacket 8.3 has a buffer overflow problem (in the schnapps-handling routines) and dumps core now and then. Very messy. (The advised workaround is to avoid schnapps and stick with bourbon and coke.)

OTOH, Weedpacket is committed to open protocols, while stolzyboy's been known to favour proprietary standards on occasion.

[Merve]

Argh! I dowloaded Moonglobe 1.9.5beta and it's closed source! What a rip!

I'm lucky I configured Weedpacket with --with-anti-junkfood and stolzyboy with --enable-anti-screwup

:D:D:D

Oh yeah, Merve 0.0.1 has good string handling functions.

[dalecosp]

originally posted by Merve
Oh yeah, Merve 0.0.1 has good string handling functions.Now if we could just figure out how to run it without the -v switch....

:p

[LordShryku]

Weedpacket 8.3 destroyed my last two machines because it comes default with --enable-drunken-rage, and it's a b*itch to turn that off.

Be damned if I ever use it again! :D

[Merve]

When's LordShryku 0.0.1beta coming out? Wait a second...LordShryku can't do math :p:p:p

//Just had to take that cheapshot :D

[LordShryku]

S'ok, I tried Merve 0.0.1, but I assume their's embedded adware, because it causes all my pages to have annoying (http://vv.carleton.ca/~adewan/popupper.html) popups (http://vv.carleton.ca/~adewan/popuppopup.html) :p

[dalecosp]

Told 'ya it always ran with '-v' :D :D

Hmm, gotta love Mozilla. Nary a popup at all.....

[Merve]

Hey, you shouldn't talk. dalecosp 89.5.3 doesn't even run on Apache. It uses ColdFusion servers! ARGH! :D

[Moonglobe]

Moonglobe 1.0 can run PHP 5 beta 2, Apache 2.0.47, and MySQL 3.23.58 on Win32 without crashing :)

[LordShryku]

Finish your sentences

Originally posted by Moonglobe
Moonglobe 1.0 can run PHP 5 beta 2, Apache 2.0.47, and MySQL 3.23.58 on Win32 without crashing :)

.....for a couple hours

[Moonglobe]

well i've nary a chance to test it for more than that............ gotta reboot into Linux sometime :)


and there's no real load........

but he can still think up conspiracy theories on the fly while caring for his beaver!:D

[LordShryku]

S'ok, LordShryku 0.6.9beta has been running strong on Win2k3 with about 30,000 hits a day for a couple weeks. Almost ready for production use :)

[Merve]

Too bad LordShryku 0.6.9beta can't add or subtract yet! According to 4xsid's programming language test, LordShryku isn't even a programming language! And it uses ColdFusion syntax....argh! :D

[LordShryku]

It uses Java syntax! Quit using 4xsid's programming language test on "ASP", when ya damn well know LordShryku 0.6.9beta is not! :p

[Merve]

I don't think you should lie. :p

[Shrike]

To my mind a programming language is an interface to an application, so HTML, CSS, Javascript, PHP, ASP, C++, Java, C# can all be considered programming languages. The concept being that the interface configures the application to behave in a particular way.

Plus CSS 2 has logic and maths so what does that mean.

Shrike 1.0 - the worlds premier cow counting application.
Please call 0800 COWSRUS.
Not available in shops

[Shrike]

gah.

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by Merve
Hey, you shouldn't talk. dalecosp 89.5.3 doesn't even run on Apache. It uses ColdFusion servers! ARGH! :D Netcraft does not agree with you....

[piersk]

Originally posted by dalecosp
Netcraft does not agree with you....

Prove it! ;)

[dalecosp]

I imagine you can use Netcraft as well as anyone else. Put my ugly yellow website in the blank, and see if it's not on Apache...

[piersk]

Yeah, but thats not dalecosp, is it?

Thats www.daleco.biz!!! Ha!! got you there, didn't I :p

[dalecosp]

Yeah, those people are way too smart and professional for me to be the owner :rolleyes:

Have a great evening, Piersk! Oh, and you spelled the link wrong.... :p But that's just fine with me ... maybe you did it on purpose or something.....

Hey, you really oughtta show us your "SP avatars" of the whole crew, don't ya think?

[piersk]

I was gonna do a "Happy New Year from the mods (and John)" wallpaper-type thing, but I never got round to it

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by Shrike
Plus CSS 2 has logic and maths so what does that mean.
Where? I know that there is a working draft on behaviours, but that's Javascript.

Nah, unless it takes data as input and transforms it in some way to produce some sort of output, I don't think it can be called a "program". It has to be able to do that at least, and if you can write a Turing machine simulator, then it's a full-fledged programming language capable of any computation possible.

Which doesn't need much. In fact, even str_replace (on its own even less powerful than regular expressions) can be used to define a Turing-complete language:

$input='some string';
$search=array(...);
$replace=array(...);
do
{ $output = str_replace($search, $replace, $input);
if($input==$output) break;
$input = $output;
} while(true);
echo $output;

is computation-universal: the input is in $input, the output (if any) is in $output, and $seach and $replace contain the program (as arrays of strings); so the specification of $search and $replace qualifies as a programming language.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Weedpacket
Where? I know that there is a working draft on behaviours, but that's Javascript.

Nah, unless it takes data as input and transforms it in some way to produce some sort of output, I don't think it can be called a "program". It has to be able to do that at least, and if you can write a Turing machine simulator, then it's a full-fledged programming language capable of any computation possible.

Which doesn't need much. In fact, even str_replace (on its own even less powerful than regular expressions) can be used to define a Turing-complete language:

$input='some string';
$search=array(...);
$replace=array(...);
do
{ $output = str_replace($search, $replace, $input);
if($input==$output) break;
$input = $output;
} while(true);
echo $output;

is computation-universal: the input is in $input, the output (if any) is in $output, and $seach and $replace contain the program (as arrays of strings); so the specification of $search and $replace qualifies as a programming language.

This is part of the CSS 2 spec (however no mainstream browser (except NS6 bleh) implements it:

.myclass[atrribute] { class definition }
.myclass2[atrribute="something"] { class definition }
.myclass3[atrribute|="something"] { class definition }

So you can say
.myclass[atrribute][atrribute="something"][atrribute|="somethingelse"] { class definition }

To get that an attribute exists, or do a boolean check on the value. There's alot of power in just those 3 conditions, particularly for XHTML. Shame M$ don't agree.

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/selector.html

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by Shrike
This is part of the CSS 2 spec (however no mainstream browser (except NS6 bleh)Mozilla and Firebird have no trouble either :) (Ps: your example won't match: if the attribute "attribute" is equal to "something" then it can't begin with "somethingelse" :))

I already knew about selectors, but I didn't think that's what you meant. Where's the maths? Can I use them to add 1 to a number?

[Shrike]

I was just illustrating that you can use all three in one class definition :)

Read the W3C spec, it gives a good rundown of everything (for example you can count elements before applying a style)

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by Shrike
Read the W3C spec, it gives a good rundown of everything (for example you can count elements before applying a style) I have read the spec! I just don't see anything that lets me add two numbers together or even increase a number by 1!

[Shrike]

I said math not addition ;)

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by Shrike
I said math not addition ;) Okay (additionless maths ... hmmm....), but much earlier in the thread I noted my (and technical) opinion that the ability to do arithmetic in the language is a perquisite for it to be a programming language.

By being a bit more restrictive about what qualifies as a "programming language" one can avoid the trap of ending up in the position where every single file on a computer has to be considered as having been written in some "programming language" or another, because even a plain text file ebook from Project Gutenberg "configures an application to behave in a particular way" - even if the application is just a text editor!

There's a whole hierarchy of languages. PHP lies at the top end of the scale - static files that don't actually do anything (HTML, CSS) lie at the bottom. Regexps and SQL lie in between.

[AdamBrill]

Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but it's better than starting a new one on the same subject(and besides, it was near the top anyway, since someone voted on the poll).

Ok... Here is the start of Adam's arguments... ;)

1. programming language
n. An artificial language used to write instructions that can be translated into machine language and then executed by a computer.

According to this, a list of requirements:

1. Must be a language.
2. Must be able to write instructions to the computer.
3. The computer must be able to interpret these instructions and execute them.

Now, let us see how HTML fits in:

1. HTML is a language.
2. HTML gives the computer instructions on where and how to render elements on the screen.
3. The computer takes the HTML and places each element in it's rightful place.

Now, if HTML is not a programming language and JavaScript is, then tell me the difference between these two lines. What makes the second programming and the first not?

1.
<a href="http://www.yahoo.com">Yahoo!</a>

2.
<a href="http://www.yahoo.com" onclick="document.location=\"http://www.yahoo.com\"; return false;" >Yahoo!</a>

How is it possible that two lines that function exactly the same in the rendering program(ie, the browser) are separated by the "programming/not programming language" barrier?

Also, a programming language is only what the interpreter makes it. I could create a new browser that uses PHP as the HTML, basically, by your logic, making PHP not a programming language.

Here's what I'm getting at:

In the above link example, the exact same thing is done with both JavaScript and HTML, therefore, in this use, they must both be either a programming language or not a programming language. I say that they are(I mean, good grief, one of them uses objects ;)), and if someone states otherwise, please give your reasons for disagreeing.

Some food for thought, at least. ;)

[piersk]

<Off Topic>Adam, are you in any way shape or form related to Ryan Brill?</Off Topic>

[Weedpacket]

Where is Turing completeness? You've done nothing to convince me that that is not a requirement of a programming language.

And with a loose enough interpretation of words like "instructions", "interpret" and "execute", as I've alluded to, ASCII could claim to be a programming language.

If you state otherwise, please give your reasons for disagreeing :)

[AdamBrill]

Originally posted by piersk
<Off Topic>Adam, are you in any way shape or form related to Ryan Brill?</Off Topic> Yes sir, he's my brother. :)
Originally posted by Weedpacket
Where is Turing completeness? You've done nothing to convince me that that is not a requirement of a programming language.

And with a loose enough interpretation of words like "instructions", "interpret" and "execute", as I've alluded to, ASCII could claim to be a programming language.

If you state otherwise, please give your reasons for disagreeingI agree that HTML is not Turing complete, but who said that a programming language needs to be?From http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TuringComplete
A problem is said to be Turing-complete if it can only be solved by a Turing machine or any system that is TuringEquivalent. Often programming languages that are TuringEquivalent are said to be TuringComplete.So, in your opinion, a language must be TuringEquivalent before it is a "programming language"? From that link, there would be some programming language's that are TuringEquivalent and some programming language's that are not Turing Equivalent.

Bottom line: Why does a programming language need to be TuringEquivalent, and where do you get that from?

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
I agree that HTML is not Turing complete, but who said that a programming language needs to be?So, in your opinion, a language must be TuringEquivalent before it is a "programming language"? From that link, there would be some programming language's that are TuringEquivalent and some programming language's that are not Turing Equivalent.

Bottom line: Why does a programming language need to be TuringEquivalent, and where do you get that from? Here's a brief review of his feeling on the subject, as he posted some time ago:originally posted by Weedpacket
I'm sorry, but if it ain't Turing-universal, I just don't feel it qualifies as a "programming" language.

I should rephrase that better: a requirement of a programming language is that it be Turing Universal. PHP is a programming language, as are Javascript and PostScript. Haskell and Emacs LISP are programming languages, and so is POV-Ray's scene description language. Brainf*ck is a programming language and so is the OISC's instruction set.A linguistic (semantic?) definition of "programming language" has been almost as difficult to come by as a BSD-licensed compiler for C#, ADA, Java, etc., etc.

If you think that's not true, take a look at
this.... (http://www.google.com/search?q=define:programming)

Now, in order to attempt to tame this disparity of terminology, some computer scientists, indeed many computer scientists, have decided that (to quote one of them) "the Turing experience in language design is relevant" to this issue.

It hasn't yet caught on with the lexicographers, who are scrambling to catch up with the hyperquick development of language in a world-wide environment, nor the general public, which doesn't care to think about such things, nor even many in the computing community who haven't the background of the computer scientists; but I'd be careful "laying down a glove" on this issue, because there is a body of opinion, backed by logic, that says this is valid....

[AdamBrill]

So the bottom line is that there are Turing complete programming languages and there are non-Turing complete programming languages. Whether or not Turing complete is a requirement is yet to be decided.

Sound about right? :)

Now all we need is a formal definition of "programming language"... :D

I would actually prefer that Turing complete is a requirement, but I do feel that HTML fits in with the definition that I provided(which is from dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=programming%20language), by the way).

[Moonglobe]

if HTML was a programming language, why is it called a markup language? now you can say that markup languages are a subset of programming languages, but think about your definition: the HTML is in no way ever converted to machine code (i.e so "the computer can execute it"). a browser program takes the HTML and outputs formatted text, images, etc. this is not at all like PHP, which even though it never really gets converted straight to machine code, it still is executed by essentially a virtual processor (for lack of a better term). so i think your definition contradicts your claim that HTML is a programming language.


PS: that in no way means there arent any 'markup language'-derived languages that are programming languages; take XSL as an example. it has conditions and math, and there are examples in this thread of it's turing completeness (i think).

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
So the bottom line is that there are Turing complete programming languages and there are non-Turing complete programming languages. Whether or not Turing complete is a requirement is yet to be decided.

Sound about right? :)Yeah, if you don't care to believe in much of anything. If I want to know the law, I read what the lawyers have written; if I want to know what happens when I die, I read the Bible; if I want to know about quantum mechanics I read books by physicists; if I want to know the names of the characters in a movie, I read the credits. Basically, I read what's been written by those who know.

What we have here is a situation in which authorities in a field have declared "programming languages are Turing equivalent", and nobody else knows what they're talking about, so they argue about it anyway.Now all we need is a formal definition of "programming language"... :DYup. Too bad they're not gonna ask me nor you when they write their dictionaries. Actually, it's really too bad that they won't ask any Comp Sci experts [of which am I *not* one, and maybe not you either? dunno :eek:].

Hmm, the "Merriam-Weedpacket" dictionary. Nope, nice idea, but not the same ring to it IMHO... :D

Hmm, y'know, one difficulty in this discussion is simply the term "programming." In Europe, for example, your calendar or your course schedule is a "programme" ... so it's real easy to say that anything "laid out in order" is a program ....

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by AdamBrill
Bottom line: Why does a programming language need to be TuringEquivalent, and where do you get that from? Well, the main thing I expect from a programming language is that I expect to be able to write programs in it. I want it to be able to output Hello World and the lyrics to n Green Bottles (once I/O has been established). I want it to be able to add two numbers together, and make change for $20 if I spend $0.37. I expect it to be able to find a knight's tour on an 8x8 chessboard, and I want it to be able to play Life and simulate a Turing machine (both of which are Turing complete). More exactly, I want to be able to write programs in the language to do those things. Turing Completeness is (in my opinion, if you insist on calling it that) part of the definition of a programming language; a formal system that is Turing complete.

There are a whole hierarchy of languages: from finite-state machines (i.e., regular expressions without backreferences) through push-down automata (i.e. context-free grammars), and culminating in Turing completeness. (In the late 1920s-early 1930s several independent attempts at defining "computation" were proposed; Turing's machines, Church's Lambda Calculus, and Herbrand-G&ouml;del formal systems. It was soon discovered that all three of them were equivalent to each other (LISP was invented to investigate the Lambda Calculus as a model of computability).

When it comes to this hierarchy, HTML doesn't even rate. I feel free to show leeway when discussion finite state machines, pushdown machines etc. and the rest by using the word "program" in relation to them; partly because it's often hard to determine Turing completeness for an arbitrary system (I saw some doubts about XSLT being Turing Complete), but HTML takes no input, describes no operations, and specifies no output any more than the present post does. I can't play Life in HTML; I can't simulate any other machine in it - not even a lowly finite-state machine (unless the machine consists of precisely one state and precisely zero transitions); I can't make change for a twenty; and I can't add two numbers together. I can't write programs in it.

[onion2k]

Could someone point me in the direction of a programming language that isn't Turing-complete? Coz I'm fascinated...

Oh, and if HTML is a programming language, then so is the markup of Word, RTF, a bitmap, a gif...

[Weedpacket]

I'd be reluctant to call it a programming language (for reasons it would be redundant to iterate), but if you consider SQL a programming language then that's one.

[onion2k]

Originally posted by Weedpacket
if you consider SQL a programming language then that's one.

SQL has conditions (if..else), loops*, variables..

* Sort of.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by onion2k
* Sort of. But not good enough....

[Nixon]

IT teachers rarely have any enthusiasm for thier work and also are usually f*!king t055ers. Ive only been through high-school but my high-school teachers were very nieve and didnt know anything about IT except how to use MS word and restart a network and this year im going to collage to do a BTEC in software development I was talking to the collage IT head dude and he said, well you will be learning to program in java blah blah blah so I said, if I wanted could I do a project in PHP for my final assesment and do you know what he said?!?!! I quote:

PHP is a very simple language and therefore there is only so far you can push the barriers of creativity with it, I would highly disregard it and put it down to another dead language which nobody uses.

WTF.

Jack.

P.S Sorry that was a bit of rant, yes?

[LordShryku]

You may want to punch him in the chest. If it hurts your hand and chimes, then my suspicion is right, and he's a robot. If not, well, he deserved it.

[onion2k]

PHP is the opensource equivalent of VB. Fact.

Technically noone should use it. Its a huge great hack. It was never designed to be a proper language, just a thing thrown together to make a few pages. But... Its so damn flexible and nice to use everyone ignores its faults and carries on regardless.

[Shrike]

I can understand your lecturers point. PHP is not a great first language. C or Java would give you a broader understanding of programming in general.

As for being a dead language, PHP is definitely not.

I've just noticed that you say you want to do your final project in PHP. Well PHP has the ability to import Java objects just as if they were native PHP objects...which means you can have a 'high power' compiled back end with a flexible, fast interpreted front-end...cool huh :)

[Nixon]

Most definatly, when it comes ill go kick my IT teachers ar$e with a powerfull, yet flexible php/java programmed website :D

Jack.

[Travis]

Probabaly been said already but HTML isn't a programming language because it lacks logic and control statements. Its a markup language... like forum code :P

[planetsim]

yup it has been many times.. maybe in future read the thread a little before posting :D


Anyways welcome to the board. :p

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by planetsim
yup it has been many times.. maybe in future read the thread a little before posting :D


Anyways welcome to the board. :p LOL, yes, welcome.

Or, planet, maybe he should just vote and check the scores ... 7.8 to 1 would win the day in any election up here ... ;)

[BuzzLY]

Originally posted by Nixon
IT teachers rarely have any enthusiasm for thier work and also are usually f*!king t055ers. Ive only been through high-school but my high-school teachers were very nieve and didnt know anything about IT except how to use MS word and restart a network and this year im going to collage to do a BTEC in software development I was talking to the collage IT head dude and he said, well you will be learning to program in java blah blah blah so I said, if I wanted could I do a project in PHP for my final assesment and do you know what he said?!?!! ...

Apparently, in your high school, the English teachers must not be very enthusiastic either, since they apparently didn't teach you spelling or how to use periods properly...

:p

[BuzzLY]

Originally posted by onion2k
PHP is the opensource equivalent of VB. Fact.

Technically noone should use it. Its a huge great hack. It was never designed to be a proper language, just a thing thrown together to make a few pages. But... Its so damn flexible and nice to use everyone ignores its faults and carries on regardless. I should kill you where you stand. Or sit. Or... whatever. :o

:p

That may have been true with earlier versions, but most programming languages are evolved from early hacks. PHP5 is proof that PHP just might be exiting puberty into early adulthood. Maybe we should have a coming-out party?

[Travis]

Yea I thought about reading through the thread.. but after the first page I was bored. Figured i'd toss in my 2 cents anyways :P

And thanks for the welcome :)

[BuzzLY]

You know Travis... your icon is kind of suggestive...

although at first I thought it was a baseball glove... :rolleyes:

[piersk]

Originally posted by BuzzLY
although at first I thought it was a baseball glove... :rolleyes:

Has it been a while Buzz?:p

[Nixon]

Originally posted by BuzzLY
Apparently, in your high school, the English teachers must not be very enthusiastic either, since they apparently didn't teach you spelling or how to use periods properly...

:p

I was on a rant. :p Rants don't need good punctuation. :D

Jack

P.S but no, my english teacher could almost be classed as an alcholic.

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by piersk
Has it been a while Buzz?:p That one's a lil' too slick to be 'real' ... :o umm, isn't this a family-friendly forum? :eek:

[piersk]

Yeah... methinks that av will be gone before too long :bemused:

[dalecosp]

On a somewhat related subject, your 'bouncy things' don't seem to be bouncing any longer ...

:D

[piersk]

Yeah it is... are you sure you haven't changed a browser setting ?

[dalecosp]

:o

:rolleyes:

[Travis]

Relax. Its a hand on a mouse. If you dont believe me look carefully.

[BuzzLY]

Oh, I can see that. I'm just saying that it was a little suggestive.

Your current one, however, I find a little questionable. Fair warning: some might find it offensive, and you may not have meant to use it that way.

Some look at the rebel flag as being the American equivalent of the German swastika. To top that off, you have a silhouette of a person that is white, as if to emphasize what the rebel flag symbolizes.

Don't get me wrong -- I know a lot of southern "good ole boys" see the flag as simply a symbol of pride in their southern heritage. However, a lot of people view it as a symbol of hate, regardless of what your true intentions may have been, and the white person silhouetted in front just seems to support that symbolism.

Just an observation, my friend. Take it or leave it :)

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by BuzzLY
Oh, I can see that. I'm just saying that it was a little suggestive. I'd say it was a little more than that.

[pohopo]

i consider html a programming language. it is not touring complete, but as another said, it does not need to be. IMHO a programming language is a language that is interpreted by some type of engine that produces some value.

Say if I was to create a page called index.php and in it I had

<? echo 'hello world' ?>

would you say I just programmed something? Or is it something else because I did not add any looping?

[LordShryku]

I'd say this debate should be held for a language that doesn't already specify what kind of language it is in it's name :rolleyes:

[planetsim]

ok lets start with brainf**k ;)

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by planetsim
ok lets start with brainf**k ;) LO(V)L!

[laserlight]

IMHO a programming language is a language that is interpreted by some type of engine that produces some value.
That definition seems to imply that all languages are programming languages.

would you say I just programmed something? Or is it something else because I did not add any looping?
Remember, it isnt about what you do using the language, it is about characteristics of the language, i.e. what can be done using the language.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by pohopo
i consider html a programming language. it is not touring complete, but as another said, it does not need to be.And the current president of the United States is named boush.
IMHO a programming language is a language that is interpreted by some type of engine that produces some value.And as I've pointed out, that could be applied to any file or stream or bag of bits at all. Is PNG a programming language?

Say if I was to create a page called index.php and in it I had

<? echo 'hello world' ?>

would you say I just programmed something? Or is it something else because I did not add any looping? No; I'd say that that's not HTML.
This page is NOT Valid !

Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser.

1.

Line 1, column 24: end of document in prolog

<? echo 'hello world' ?>

[pohopo]

as i am the type to admit a mistake (and learn from it) i take back all i said. so, after further review i realize i was talking out my butt and i agree that html is not a programming language.

[Weedpacket]

Not to worry; there are whole hierarchies of languages and classes of languages and suchlike - and it can be difficult to tell whether a given language is a member of a particular class or not; language theory is a pretty big discipline, and there wasn't really much done on it until the 1930s.

[suepahfly]

HTML Hyper Text Markup Language

Where does it say 'programming' :?
And who are the eleven stupid arses ?

[darkdirk1]

No HtML is not a programming language.
It's a classification system for describing data.

Basically every htm doc is just a ridiculously poorly written XML document.


Here however is a more interesting question.
Where is the line/difference between a scripting language and programming language???

Example.
Are the following programming languages???

PERL - JavaScript - ActionScript????

I vote -yes.
If you are working with functions, variables and classes you are knee deep in programming.

But someone could make a compelling arguement otherwise....

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by suepahfly
HTML Hyper Text Markup Language

Where does it say 'programming' :?
And who are the eleven stupid arses ? Heh, not me. You might catch a couple if you read the whole thread.

Probably, it depends on whether or not the poster/voter can use a heavier language than HTML. So, 79 out of 90 among us can. Pride ... what an issue. ;)

[planetsim]

I am one of those 11 i think, but i think i made a point that i knew it wasnt a programming language, just a bunch of tags to tell a browser to display something.

[bubblenut]

Originally posted by darkdirk1

Here however is a more interesting question.
Where is the line/difference between a scripting language and programming language???

Example.
Are the following programming languages???

PERL - JavaScript - ActionScript????

I vote -yes.
If you are working with functions, variables and classes you are knee deep in programming.

But someone could make a compelling arguement otherwise....

A scripting language is a type of programming language, I believe it is simply one which is interpreted rather than compiled.

Yes, of course they are, they're Turing complete and much more.

How? What would be a compelling argument that Perl isn't a programming language?

[Shrike]

Well PHP/FI was originally a perl program, but was PHP/FI a programming language?

I'm pretty sure I could make a (pseudo) programming language using PHP as the processor and HTML as the 'language' but is that valid? :)

PHP is interpreted essentially by C, so is that the same thing?

[bubblenut]

Yes. If it was turing complete. It wouldn't be HTML anymore though. It may be a language which uses a similar collection of characters and words but the meaning of these words would be different and it would therefore not be HTML.
C is interpretted by the compiler so if PHP isn't a programming language then nothing is unless we're going to draw a distinction between the language being compiled a long time before the program is run or a fraction of a second before it's run.

[Shrike]

I agree about the first point, but by that fact, HTML and PHP are not languages until they are read by an interpreter.

Antiworld tickets are £51 now...bugger :)

[bubblenut]

I would disagree, they are both programming languages, but whatever's created using them is not a program untill it's compiled. So, in the case of interpretted languages, they are not programms until run.

@Antiworld: Yea, 5ux0r, you think you're going to make it?

[Shrike]

Well it's my girlfriends birthday the next day so we will be going out somewhere...and everywhere else in London is crap coz everyone is at Antiworld ;). But £105 just for tickets - ouch.

[bubblenut]

I think you should look at the line up again :rolleyes:

[laserlight]

but by that fact, HTML and PHP are not languages until they are read by an interpreter.
Hold on for a moment.
Are you talking about PHP the language specification, PHP the language implementation or PHP scripts?

but whatever's created using them is not a program untill it's compiled.
So are Java programs programs, since Java programs, to some extent, isnt compiled (into machine code)?

[Shrike]

Hold on for a moment.
Are you talking about PHP the language specification, PHP the language implementation or PHP scripts?

The language specification. I could write a parser in PHP that could interpret HTML as a Turing-complete language. Thus the language is only relevant to the interpreter it's associated with.

[laserlight]

Thus the language is only relevant to the interpreter it's associated with.
That applies to all languages, including natural languages.

The problem with that sort of reasoning is that one can then propose that all languages are programming languages, and all languages are not programming languages, depending on arbitrary context.
Better yet, all languages are not languages, under the correct conditions.

Obviously such a conclusion is absurd, and I think that it is far more reasonable to consider the intentional function of a language then to arbitrarily assign function to it.

As such...

I could write a parser in PHP that could interpret HTML as a Turing-complete language.
No, you cannot do that.
You could, however, write a parser in PHP that could interpret some text as a Turing-complete language, where that text happens to conform to HTML if used as such.

[Shrike]

Any language is a collection of shapes or sounds with arbitrarily assigned function (print "hello" means the same thing in many languages). The point I'm trying to make is that the language is meaningless without interpretation. Or you might say that a programming language is an agreement between the programmer and the language definition.

Wandering off topic here sorry :)

[laserlight]

Any language is a collection of shapes or sounds with arbitrarily assigned function (print "hello" means the same thing in many languages).
Ah, but arbitrarily assigned by whom, and with what intention?
By the users of that language, or the users of another language?
In this case, you are proposing that the users of another language simply change the given language and insist that nothing has changed.

But yeah, we're going off topic :)

[BuzzLY]

Yeah, but it's the Echo Lounge. That's pretty much par for the hole:)

[Jason Batten]

um... are you going mad?

[BuzzLY]

Why do you ask? Am I frothing at the mouth again?

[goldbug]

perhaps he's competing for the "King of old (content) bumps" title :)

[BuzzLY]

Nah, not king. It's only 8 months old. I think someone recently bumped a 3 year old topic recently.

[LoganK]

3 month old topic! :D

[laserlight]

I think some random user voted.

[LoganK]

How unfortunate...this topic was nice and forgotten, and the random user brought it back. This topic was trying to sleep! :)

[BuzzLY]

So... please keep responding so it shows up on my subscribed threads list!

[LoganK]

"Thread Tools" -> "Unsubscribe from Thread" :D

[BuzzLY]

well... what I would prefer is that it only shows up in the list if someone replies, and NOT when someone votes on the poll.

[LoganK]

There's no way to change that? 'Tis a shame...

Who would still be voting on the poll? It's an old topic!!!!

[BuzzLY]

Yes, it is... and an issue we have complained about at some length. You'd think the Jupiter gods would get the hint. <ahem> :D

[LoganK]

JPnyc is an admin right? PM him to change it!

...or does it require actual source code editing, from whom no one is allowed to access except the actual webmaster himself (or herself :D)

[planetsim]

Im pretty certain this is a vBulletin thing so yes code related.

[piersk]

Not necessarily code-related. There's probably an option to lock the poll.

[Weedpacket]

I'm fairly sure mods can do it. Ish.

[LoganK]

Yes, I think there's a way to lock the poll...however, BuzzLY was complaining about not having vBulletin alert him by e-mail when someone votes, only when they reply....

[JPnyc]

There is no email sent out for replies to a poll. That option doesn't exist in this software

[LoganK]

Well, BuzzLY was complaining about it, so... :D

[JPnyc]

Well I closed the poll. Now it won't be popping up for votes any longer. 'Fraid that's the best that can be done.