FIrst Commercial Job..

[Ravenous]

The odds are good that I'm going to be getting my first commercial w3b design project here in the next few weeks. My question is, what's going rate for w3b design work?

The site I'm going to be building is similar to www.metropolis-records.com. Here's the details: built on PHP/MySQL
complete administration panel
search functions
e-c0mmerce sh0pp!ng cart, etc.
a news systum
some custom graphics work
whatever else the client may wantThis will be my first paid project. What ballpark should I be quoting?

Thanks

[goldbug]

Dunno, but please for crissakes, spellcheck your proposal before sending. :)

[Ravenous]

There's no need to spellcheck. I only used 3s and 0s 'cause of the damn intellitext.

[goldbug]

Ahhh, intellitext, the scourge of IE users everywhere :)

You -did- however spell system incorrectly :)

[Ravenous]

Actually, I didn't. 'system' has an ad attached to it as well.

Anyway.. What's the going rate on web design?

[goldbug]

Well see, thats a complicated question.

It depends on a LOT of stuff. For example: how much experience do you have; what technologies do you plan on using; will you be using your own equipment; will you need to buy new software; will this project keep you from taking other paying jobs; your physical location; working on site or off; is support included; will you be providing the installation services or rely on the client; will you be designing it for others to update later, or only yourself; factor in amounts to cover "benefits" for yourself if you don't already have them (healthcare and such); etc.. etc... etc... (I could go on for days)

A good idea to start out estimating, is to compare what you think the skill is worth per hour, to say, a McDonalds employee. Adjust hourly rate accordingly :) Another good idea is to look on sites like eLance.com and see what people are bidding on similar projects, divide the bid amount by how many hours you think it will take (helps to do a detailed breakdown), and see if that $/hour is close to what you consider acceptable.

[stolzyboy]

Our rates are:

$65.00 - html/javascript/dhtml
$85.00 - PHP/ASP/etc...

pretty much the norm in Fargo, ND anyway

[goldbug]

Yeah, as far as our rates go here....

At work we charge clients something in the ballpark of $75-125 USD/hr (contract-dependant)

When *I* do sites by myself, they're usually just "small" sites, usually for friends or friends of coworkers, and I end up feeling bad for charging them a lot, so its usually something like $25-40/hour, depending on complexity.(If too complex (takes up too much time) then I refer them elsewhere, or refer them to my employer.

[cgraz]

I think everyone so far has been right on. Figure out how many hours it would take you (always quote as if everything that could possibly go wrong, does. That way, you don't lose money). Then, multiply that by how much you watn to make an hour. $65/hr is what we charge also.

Cgraz

[stolzyboy]

generally when we quote, we do this, say we think it will take 10 hours, we double that, then add half of the original hours, to come up with 25, that way we don't step on ourselves and underbid

Our theory:

"It is better to overbid and not get the job, than to underbid and step on your toes!"

[cgraz]

great theory stolzy! I'd say it's right on. Never quote 12 hours if you estimate it will take 10. You'll probably end up taking 20 and losing 8 hours x hourly rate.

Time is money.

Cgraz

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by cgraz
Then, multiply that by how much you watn to make an hour. $65/hr is what we charge also. And maybe tack on another 10%, because even impossible things go wrong sometimes. Plus, you have to take into account that you have to deal with the client when you get 90% of the way through the project and they start saying "Could you change this? Can I have that? What if this was over here?" It starts out as a two-second "change one word" and then leads you down the slippery path to major architectural alteratios. The only real defence against this is a solid and precise scope, but even then they'll try it on. And it still takes time.

[stolzyboy]

yep, we call that "The Feature Creep"

and in our signed contracts, we cover ourselves there and start charging more when they ask for more

you can never be too thorough when quoting for jobs

[Ravenous]

I appreciate all your comments. I think I can develop an moderately accurate quote.

As for contracts, any tips in that area? I know it needs to be as thorough as possible, but that's about it. agreed upon rate ???:confused:

[Elizabeth]

You might also want to think about these things:
- ownership of the files themselves and the design/content- yours vs. theirs?
- website maintenance- who is to be responsible for updating the site; will you provide them small updates for little cost, or perhaps a monthly contract if content changes regularly? Will you provide them with a CMS to manage the site themselves?
- terms of payment- typically we require 50% upfront and then the final 50% upon completion of the site and a final approval meeting, but they will need to know where they stand- most companies aren't too happy with a per hour quote only- they want some "ceiling" placed on the project so they know what they're getting into, and they won't have too many surprises.
-status meetings or reports- I know clients like to know what's going on so they may require periodic reports as to how the site is developing, or meetings to see for themselves how the site is coming together. This takes some of your time away from designing, but is an integral part of the client/designer relationship. It's good to build this in to your proposal.
-detail as much as you possibly can about the website and what it will do versus what it won't do. The more detailed you are in the proposal, the more comfortable your clients will be with what they are getting, and the less room is allowed for changes or surprises later on. Always keep in mind that these are generally not website people and they have no earthly idea what goes in to making a website of that proportion. I recommend spelling everything out for them so they get a better understanding of the amount of work that's involved. And as someone else suggested, make sure you spell out the fact that anything above and beyond the scope of work outlined in the proposal will be priced separately and on a per-hour basis.

A word of caution on over-estimating your quote, however- while it's good to make sure you're covered, I'd caution you on becoming greedy or padding your quote too much. Especially in today's market when competition is at a relatively high rate. For example, one of our first clients was quoted $20,000 to develop her site- a very simple informational site with perhaps 10 pages of strictly HTML code- no PHP, nothing fancy at all. As a small business, this was absolutely out of the question for them and we were able to provide a great website for less than 10% of the competition's price. Obviously you get what you pay for, but there is a happy medium there and a delicate balance. Because you are doing this on your own (I think) you have the advantage of having very little to no overhead (as opposed to larger firms who have many other expenses which they have to compensate for) - so I would definitely take advantage of that in my pricing if I were in your shoes.

Hope that helps!

-Elizabeth