Career in doubt [Archive] - PHPBuilder.com

piersk

09-24-2003, 05:16 PM

Although it's not .NET, I work with ASP and I've still found time to do my own thing with PHP in my spare time.

It doesn't hurt to add another feather to your bow. I say don't be hasty, stick around for a bit. Give it some time to make sure you definately don't like it, maybe learn a few things at your company's expense (suggest that you need to go on a course or two ;) ) and if you're sure it's not your thing, then jump ship.

LordShryku

09-24-2003, 05:16 PM

I can already hear drawmack yelling at you for that comment.......

stolzyboy

09-24-2003, 05:20 PM

i guess .NET has it's place, but it really isn't for the web, it is mainly used to be able to intermingle .NET applications (but yes, you can, and it will be used on the web, there are some neat features), like the newer office versions, other M$ products, etc... PHP is going to beat it hands down in the web department, since it is mainly a framework, don't confuse ASP with .NET either, they are totally different things, and yes there is ASP.NET, and that in itself is different than ASP

all in all, if you are worried that the webworld is gonna be swallowed up by .NET or ASP.NET, it isn't PHP will be around for a long time

piersk

09-24-2003, 05:20 PM

Why should he? It's a perfectly sensible comment. And Sxooter might get some free training out of it.

Also, you have to bear in mind that the company may look at their situation in 6 months to a years time and decide that .NET's not for them and go back to OS stuff. I know some people whose companies have done that.

Please note that stolzy wrote his post whilst I was writing mine. The above bit is in response to shryku.

keith73

09-24-2003, 05:36 PM

unless you can find a good job doing things the open source way, stay where you are and learn what they want you to learn. you may hate it but at least you'll have a job.

Take it from someone who was out of work for 6 months last year, all the want ads want microsoft technologies. I lucked out finding a job that specifically wanted php and mysql skills.

- keith

LordShryku

09-24-2003, 05:37 PM

I've just heard the rant before, and I got to say that I agree with mack in the fact that you need the right tool to fit the job. I really don't know what Sxooter's working with, but just writing off .NET as a "joke" wouldn't be my choice. Now don't get me wrong, I'm an avid OSS advocate, but when I'm using Microsoft products on a Microsoft OS, in most cases, a Microsoft solution will fit the bill. All about "the right tool for the right job"...

Doug G

09-24-2003, 05:37 PM

i guess .NET has it's place, but it really isn't for the web, ...
You must have used a different version of .NET than everyone else :) A goodly chunk of the .NET framework is web-oriented.

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 05:40 PM

I have to agree with the above though. You might as well stick with and learn as much as you can. Meanwhile keep your eye out for any better job that you can grab when you feel your current job stagnating.

stolzyboy

09-24-2003, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Doug G
You must have used a different version of .NET than everyone else :) A goodly chunk of the .NET framework is web-oriented.

sorry, meant "mainly" for the web, what i was trying to get across is that it is M$'s way of getting everything into one bundle and the ability for everything to tie together in a nice way, they didn't create it mainly for the web, ie to do away with ASP, and yes it will be used for the web, even when in conjunction with other .NET apps, but it will not likely be the end all be all of programs for the web

piersk

09-24-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by stolzyboy
but it will not likely be the end all be all of programs for the web

True, but then to be completely honest, neither is PHP.

stolzyboy

09-24-2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by piersk
True, but then to be completely honest, neither is PHP.

it sure isn't and there never really will be, but the maturest and the closest will prevail and it won't be any form of .NET

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 05:53 PM

I don't think much of anything coming from MS could be considered mature. I seems to me that the most useful and well made web languages get used the most, and I know I see much more PHP/Linux/MySQL ect than MS stuff.

piersk

09-24-2003, 05:57 PM

Also, it depends on how much a company wants to spend. If they want something that's cheaper, it might be worth going the open source route rather than having to fork out for MS stuff.

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 06:01 PM

Also extensibility is a factor in a lot of decisions. I have never seen the source to an MS app, have you? :P

piersk

09-24-2003, 06:12 PM

Please explain why you would need to. I have been using PHP with Apache for the last 18 months or so and I have never needed to look at the source code of either.

LordShryku

09-24-2003, 06:14 PM

It's just the fact that you could look at the source if you wanted to. The whole "No you can't see my source!" just gives me that "They're hiding something...." feeling.

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 06:18 PM

Exactly. There is not really any reason to for me either, but if I did have a reason, it would be right there.

piersk

09-24-2003, 06:19 PM

I don't think that you have a valid point. Have you ever looked at the PHP or Apache source code? Please give me a reason where you'd want to.

LordShryku

09-24-2003, 06:22 PM

I have looked at PHP source out of sheer curiosity. Wanted to see how some of the functions we're being performed. And I think you're just trusting. I'm more paranoid. So while the point may not seem valid to you, it is valid to thousands of other geeks out there.

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 06:25 PM

My point wasn't limited to just PHP/MySQL. For example, I was working for a company who had some software outsourced for them for Windows. The employees of this company use the program daily, but the company that they outsourced does not. The employees of the company find numerous things that they would like to do differently every day. However, they don't have the source to this program, so they can't fix it.

I am just saying that not having the source available can provide unneeded limitation in respects to things like that. Not spefically saying it about any one thing. The above is just an example.

piersk

09-24-2003, 06:35 PM

In your example, it seems that this software wasn't what the company actually needed and perhaps should have taken more time to demo the code before putting it into use.

Anyway, that's not really an argument. Most computer games are not open source. Are you suggesting that people shouldn't play computer games because they cannot be trusted?

LordShryku

09-24-2003, 06:37 PM

I'm not suggesting to anyone to do anything. I'm only conveying my personnal opinion on the matter.

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 06:40 PM

That was just an example. Source code is useful because the need to look at it and possibly alter *could* come up.

piersk

09-24-2003, 06:41 PM

It could, but it's highly unlikely. How many times have you altered the source code of PHP and Apache?

To Shryku:

You've said that your point about not trusting MS stuff because you can't view the source code is shared by Originally posted by LordShryku
thousands of other geeks out there.

I bet 90% of those geeks play computer games that are not open source.

stolzyboy

09-24-2003, 06:42 PM

Way to go Sxooter, look at the S#!tstorm you brought up in this thread! J/K

Flame Away!

I'm a proponent of the ability to be ABLE to look at the source as well. Just thought it may be pertinent in this discussion.

stolzyboy

09-24-2003, 06:44 PM

Just a quick statement, but if there weren't open source on Unix, there wouldn't be a linux as we no it today, I mean if Unix said, no way, you can't see that, then little ol' torvald wouldn't have come up with his version of linux and so on and so on

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 06:45 PM

I haven't ever looked at it, but I have never had the need to. My point is, that if I did have the need to, I could. Also, having an open source program/whatever means that you have the input of anyone willing to spend their x amount of time and bandwidth to download it and look at/modify it. Which means that you can take solutions to problems from a much wider base than with a closed source software.

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by stolzyboy
Just a quick statement, but if there weren't open source on Unix, there wouldn't be a linux as we no it today, I mean if Unix said, no way, you can't see that, then little ol' torvald wouldn't have come up with his version of linux and so on and so on

That's another point. Open source spawns new software by its very nature. Linus Torvalds wouldn't have made Linux because he would have had to reinvent the wheel and make his own Unix from scratch to do so.

piersk

09-24-2003, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by n00854180t
That's another point. Open source spawns new software by its very nature. Linus Torvalds wouldn't have made Linux because he would have had to reinvent the wheel and make his own Unix from scratch to do so.

How do you know he wouldn't have anyway? I certainly don't. I'm pretty certain you don't either. But thats not the point here. You can't say that everything MS does is bad just because you can't look inside. I happen to think that some MS products are very good. I work with them every day and I haven't come across anything that would make me change my mind on that. You may ask why is one of the projects I am working on in PHP.
That's my choice since I am on a placement at the moment and wanted a project to do in PHP so that when I come to graduate I have something to show future employers.

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 06:56 PM

I didn't say that anything made by MS was bad, I am just saying that having closed source can impose unwanted restriction in certain situations, whereas an open source equivalent would have no such restriction. Thats it.

Sxooter

09-24-2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by piersk
I don't think that you have a valid point. Have you ever looked at the PHP or Apache source code? Please give me a reason where you'd want to.

I've looked at the apache source code. I found and reported one bug after confirming it (wayyyy back in the 1.3.4 days of yore) and added a -b switch to htpasswd before the apache crew had a chance to do it.

The bug was not a show stopper, but the -b switch certainly was. I needed to be able to change passwords via php and wasn't able to do it very easily without being able to feed htpasswd the password on the command line when called.

Having the code isn't about IF you've ever looked at it though, it's about having the freedom to keep from being held hostage by a hostile corporation that's selling you closed source code.

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 06:58 PM

Sxooter, that's just about what I was trying to get across this entire time :P

Sxooter

09-24-2003, 06:59 PM

More telling points. I like the guy I'm talking about as a person, but I'm pretty sure he's a bit clueless. Besides the fact that he referred to Linux as "shareware" (gods, has he touched a computer since the Commodore 64???) and out of hand dismissed it as not an option, he's never read "The Mythical Man-Month" by Fred Brooks. This book is foundational to understanding development from a management perspective, and changed the way people looked at managing software developers some 25 years ago when it came out.

For a CIO to have not only not read it, but to have never heard of it scares me.

Sxooter

09-24-2003, 07:03 PM

Here was my main point to the CIO: With J2EE or PHP we can never be held hostage, and we can always use a different OS/web server / library set if we need to. With .net, it's all MS all the way. And if MS decides that .net isn't what they really wanted to do, they can stop supporting it and you're stuck with upgrading / migrating to the next great platform from them.

And they aren't trustworthy, they've proven it in the past, many times over. If they decide to enter into your market, and you're using their technology, they wouldn't hesitate to use any inside information they had to screw you royally.

I love my company, and I have a feeling it's heading right down the crapper. We've got tons of great unix / j2ee / oracle / postgresql / php talent, and very little MS talent, and most of that is made up of the junior programmers. I got the feeling the CIO was more interested in how his MS stock would do (assuming here, but it sure felt like he had some) than how MY company would do. And I know in three years he'll be gone and I'll be picking up the pieces, if I'm still here.

piersk

09-24-2003, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Sxooter
Having the code isn't about IF you've ever looked at it though, it's about having the freedom to keep from being held hostage by a hostile corporation that's selling you closed source code.

I don't feel that I'm held hostage by MS. And I have written sites that use MS software and they have worked just as well as PHP.

Will someone explain to me what everyone's problem with MS is? Admittedly, I used to say the same things, but I had never really tried anything MS based (apart from windows on a PC). Now that I have used both Open Source stuff and MS stuff, I can see no difference. Ok, so you have to patch MS stuff properly. But if you take the time to do it properly and patch everything as soon as a hole is discovered, things like the MSBlaster worm will never affect you.

I don't care what software you use. It doesn't bother me at all.
What bothers me is when people get stuck in their ways and don't try out new things and don't experiment with different web servers or web languages to see which is the best for the job in hand. Sometimes that may be PHP, but others it may also be ASP. You use the best tool for the job, and whether you like it or not, that tool may sometimes be a closed source, MS product.

stolzyboy

09-24-2003, 07:06 PM

Well you got a hard decision there Sxooter, but I have confidence you'll do whatever you need to, to save your own arse, and maybe pick up the slack of your wonderful CIO. I mean aren't the CIO's supposed to be the smart ones about computing that are just out of the game of the REAL work. That's it, out of the game is the problem. They don't keep in touch once they get to high kingdom status, regardless of what the in-touch REAL admins do.

n00854180t

09-24-2003, 07:07 PM

Sxooter, yeah I think you really have to experience the being held hostage before you can understand how much of a difference it makes. That's why I am developing my company's shopping system from scratch instead of using the dated perl system they are currently using.

piersk

09-24-2003, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by stolzyboy
I mean aren't the CIO's supposed to be the smart one about computing that are just out of the game of the REAL work.

Nah, they're job is to choose the "prettiest laptop" for themselves and to waste the IT budget on it :mad:

To continue on an earlier point I made before I was dragged off, Sxooter, if the company goes through with this change (and you never know, they might not even go ahead with it), stick at it for a couple of months, and if you find it's really not your cup of tea, then leave.

LordShryku

09-24-2003, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by piersk
I don't feel that I'm held hostage by MS. And I have written sites that use MS software and they have worked just as well as PHP.

Will someone explain to me what everyone's problem with MS is? Admittedly, I used to say the same things, but I had never really tried anything MS based (apart from windows on a PC). Now that I have used both Open Source stuff and MS stuff, I can see no difference. Ok, so you have to patch MS stuff properly. But if you take the time to do it properly and patch everything as soon as a hole is discovered, things like the MSBlaster worm will never affect you.

I don't care what software you use. It doesn't bother me at all.
What bothers me is when people get stuck in their ways and don't try out new things and don't experiment with different web servers or web languages to see which is the best for the job in hand. Sometimes that may be PHP, but others it may also be ASP. You use the best tool for the job, and whether you like it or not, that tool may sometimes be a closed source, MS product.

For some reason here.......I feel like I've been getting ignored throughout this whole thread.....

*goes back to work*

piersk

09-24-2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by LordShryku
For some reason here.......I feel like I've been getting ignored throughout this whole thread.....

*goes back to work*

Por que?

LordShryku

09-24-2003, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by LordShryku
I've just heard the rant before, and I got to say that I agree with mack in the fact that you need the right tool to fit the job. I really don't know what Sxooter's working with, but just writing off .NET as a "joke" wouldn't be my choice. Now don't get me wrong, I'm an avid OSS advocate, but when I'm using Microsoft products on a Microsoft OS, in most cases, a Microsoft solution will fit the bill. All about "the right tool for the right job"...

Page 1. My point from the beginning. And somehow this spawned into a MS vs OSS conversation

stolzyboy

09-24-2003, 07:16 PM

FLAME

Sxooter

09-24-2003, 07:19 PM

Keep in mind, this company has three large Sparc/Solaris box that, during peak hours, handle 3000 to 4000 users each simultaneously, with nary a wimper, all the while hitting a 16 way Ultra Sparc running Oracle.

We've been looking at using a rack of dual PIV boxen running linux to migrate to. It's a Unix shop here. What bugs me is that I think the reason the CIO wants to go Windows is because it's easier to pick up programmers in the handy twelve pack format, and he views developers as all being basically equal and doesn't understand that doing things like adding programmers to a late project makes it MORE late.

I.e. if his decision here is based on MBMA (Management By Magazine Article) then we're screwed. Our only hope is that the first implementation will go down in sheets of flame during testing before customers ever see it.

stolzyboy

09-24-2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by Sxooter
Our only hope is that the first implementation will go down in sheets of flame during testing before customers ever see it.

You could make that happen, J/K and Good Luck on this new venture into HELL!

piersk

09-24-2003, 07:23 PM

And don't forget to let us know how you get on

Sxooter

09-24-2003, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by stolzyboy
You could make that happen, J/K and Good Luck on this new venture into HELL!

With the load our systems have to handle, I won't have to lend a hand to windows to get it to crash and burn. Hell, our Crystal Reports server dies once a week, and our shipping system once a month, both on windows, both low to medium load. I can't imagine the nightmares involved in keeping a 10k+ user windows cluster happy.

and let's not forget, MS has been trying to get money for each unique individual who connects to your system then hits the database on the backend. For us that's in the hundreds of thousands of customers.

LordShryku

09-24-2003, 07:33 PM

Hell man....sounds like you work for the same company I do!

piersk

09-24-2003, 07:35 PM

Ewww, crystal reports. Nasty. Never tried the web based version, but i didnt like the basic "get the reports on a sheet of A4" version (yes I know that they're pretty much the same software, but I wasn't using the enterprise version)

Sxooter

09-24-2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by piersk
Ewww, crystal reports. Nasty. Never tried the web based version, but i didnt like the basic "get the reports on a sheet of A4" version (yes I know that they're pretty much the same software, but I wasn't using the enterprise version)

Stupid thing set my pager off at 2:30 am monday morning. I'm getting it taken off my list of servers I handle. I've been woken up something like 6 times in the last two months, always at some godawful hour.

You can guess how many times my Linux boxes have set off my pager. It's an integer between -1 and +1, non inclusive. ;)

Sxooter

09-24-2003, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by LordShryku
Hell man....sounds like you work for the same company I do!

We're probably all working for the same big conglomerate, "The VERY VERY VERY Big Corporation of America"

Extra points to anyone who knows where THAT came from.

Merve

09-24-2003, 08:36 PM

Somehow, I don't think it'll be that bad...wait it out, see how you like it. If it sucks crap, leave. I don't know any ASP, and I am not aware of all PHP's capabilites, so I can't tell you which one is 'better'. Good luck.

elToro

09-25-2003, 04:28 PM

Extra points to anyone who knows where THAT came from.

Monty Python's The Meaning of Life

csn

09-25-2003, 06:15 PM

I gotta admit I think C# and the .Net class libraries look kind of neat, but I really haven't done much beyond basic development with them.

Maybe the Mono project is an option? I've done zero work with that though.

Are there many PHP and/or PostgreSQL jobs out there anyway?