Some advice for those starting out....

[goldbug]

http://www.9rules.com/whitespace/web_business/setting_the_price_part_ii.php

Also, I'd include the first comment (pyro's) as part of the article. It's a tremendously important point.

[piersk]

I'd agree with that and also point out this (http://www.ryanbrill.com/archives/every-design-is-a-portfolio-piece/) page (cor ain't pyro lucky for getting all this credit??

[pyro]

It is a good article, especially for those who may have gotten into this field gradually, on their own. From my experience, knowing what to charge is one of the harder things to discern... It's easy to undercut yourself, and end up losing out on the job (especially when combined with scope creep).

[piersk]

Originally posted by pyro
(especially when combined with scope creep).

scope creep?? whats that? is it when the clients requirements keep changin, cos that can be a pain.

[pyro]

Yes, or rather, when clients add or change little things along the way. It happened to me on my latest project. As I was developing it for them, they kept needing little things added. Nothing major, but enough to be a pain.

[mogster]

> It's a tremendously important point.

Amen! :p

The article at whitespace is like reading about my life the last year.

My reaction:
- log all hours as trackable sessions
- do better project planning
- insist on workshops with the customer prior to project start
- deny the customers the software they don't want to pay the (final) price for

In addition, I'm gonna shift the focus from selling development hours to selling ready-to-use products.
Unless there is a client willing to pay the actual price development costs, of course.
But clients are very little project minded - that's my experience, anyway. Wrong customers, perhaps?
They tend to see a web project as something they can send away for a month or two, and then just receive the final result ready for publishing. At best one can hope for a meeting or five during the project process, usually where you show the result so far, and this makes for expensive development:
1. You code something
2. The customer corrects the finished result
3. You produce revised code
4. Iterate

When it should be:
1. You and the customer plan together
2. You code
3. Customer accepts code (happily clapping hands)

This lack of interest is mostly based on the customers inexperience with computer projects, and the inexperience reflects some of the problems companies face when assigning resources for a project, especially "non-technologized" companies.

They all have a picture of webpages as something easy to make, because the neighbours 12-year old kid can make pretty neat stuff.
Then they are used to buy software, ready to use, on a cd for 5 bucks. Or 500. But not for 10,000.

So what they are looking for is basically a cd, complete with publishing system and webserver and all - ready to play.
At around 5 - 500 bucks. Or perhaps 700, but then damn you better be good.

The more experienced ones know that there is more involved, but tend to glue to the estimated price. There's just no way they will understand that this is an estimate, and the thing must be developed to some extent before the final price is set. :p
Or that a more correct estimate can be achieved if they involve themselves, and produce better specifications.

Here's some common(?) warning signs (and pitfalls):
- customer has poor specifications and limp wallet
- customer keeps it out of the business area (invites you home, does it after hours and so on..)
- customer has plans for part 2 of project, and asks you to bill him for the extra work on part 1 when part 2 is developing. Usually there is no defined start date for part 2, and no defined specifications either. (Oldest trick in the book, it appears. And I fell for it! :cool: Long live the naiive - we shall inherit the earth! :D)

- customer person 1 talks with customer person 2 prior to meetings, and they use technique on you.
- customer mentions neighbours kid's level of computer competence
- you invite customers home for meeting *Cardinal sin*
- you estimate too little too early - to a customer the estimate is a Price Tag

knutm :-)

[goldbug]

Originally posted by pyro
(especially when combined with scope creep).

Oh man, I *hate* scope creep. On literally every project I've worked on for the past couple of years, it's reared its ugly head. Latelly I've been trying to be good at flat out telling people "no, that'll be another project for later", but it's hard, especially when most of those little changes only take maybe 5 minutes to do.... they definitely add up.

[piersk]

This is a problem I had when dealing with some clients last october. However, this time things are going to be a little different (same client):
I'm writing a "functional spec" which outlines every little thing I am going to do. They agree on this and then I start the work. Anythin not on there is extra. It also helps you to plan your time more efficiantly. Then, you can both agree when the project has been completed, since you will have completed everything on that spec.