More IE Goodness....

[LordShryku]

Just a heads up for the few around here still using IE as their main browser. There's a new exploit (http://isc.incidents.org/) out there targeting online bankers. I know I do most of my banking online, so this caught my eye.

[planetsim]

This is sort of Old but IIS was targetted with a virus which would install some things onto IE...

However that news doesnt surprise me.. who uses IE these days unless there forced :bemused:

[Mordecai]

Originally posted by planetsim
who uses IE these days unless there forced
Unfortunately, a very large crowd.

[ajdegans]

i use IE since im not having dificulties with it :) but lately im reading some more on forums and all and see "BAD IE" coming up more and more...

now, to be mega off-topic: can someone tell me whats so friggen bad about IE and why i should something else. and suggest what that 'else' must be then :)

TY!

[Schwalbach]

Hey,

I can't suggest the "bad" in IE, but I can show you the good in Firefox.

http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

[ajdegans]

looks good 'n shiny :) hows the windows support? pretty well i figured, but what i didnt see. how does windows react on a not native browser set to default? is it gonna wine about that IE is not default and want to "fix" that?


I use windows 2k pro SP4 :) i guess its allright but im not interrested in a lot of trouble when i install firefox or something like it :p

[LordShryku]

It won't wine. All you can do it install it and give it a shot. If you don't like it, uninstall it. Personally, for Windows, I use Firefox, and install it on every Windows machine I build.

Some points to IE, beyond all of the exploits you see popping up for it:

1) IE doesn't support a lot of CSS. So valid webpages might not show up the way they were meant to look through IE.

2) Tabbed browsing! Don't know how to live without this anymore.

[BuzzLY]

IE doesn't support a lot of CSS. So valid webpages might not show up the way they were meant to look through IE.I think it's more accurate to say that it doesn't support it well. It does support most CSS, though. And when you're a developer, and 95% of the world uses IE, you're kind of forced to standardize with IE and build "additional" support for other browsers.

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by LordShryku
1) IE doesn't support a lot of CSS. So valid webpages might not show up the way they were meant to look through IE. Funny, and I remember when IE was the only browser that would support CSS.

[ajdegans]

Well guys (and girl)

i just installed firefox.... at first sight it seems ok, but after opening several websites it makes me nervous..... why, oh why does it show table borders everywhere?

i checked in dreamweaver and it appears to me that firefox has bad table recognitions? it doesnt seem to understand that a tag like this


<td bordercolor=#333333>


actually does mean that the color must be some greyscale... it just looks all weird and screwed? never saw such in IE though :) *bite me!*

i tried some html editing aswell because it might occur a tag is missing somewhere or a css thing overrules it but none bug is found....

but the tabs rock ;)

anyone got an idea?:confused: :evilgrin:

[Merve]

IE -

doesn't support CSS properly
doesn't support .pngs properly
has no native MathML support :D
has many security flaws
doesn't have tabbed browsing
no themes/skins
almost no extensions
crashes a lot
is not open source
does not have tools for web development
just plain sucks


I've been using the Mozilla (Seamonkey) suite for a few months now and I am quite satisfied with it.

[Mordecai]

Originally posted by ajdegans
never saw such in IE though
Nope, you won't see IE display HTML correctly half (if not more. Probably more.) the time.

[ajdegans]

wqell thats nice but now its vice versa as you all say... the websites look fine in IE and screw up in Firefox :(

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by ajdegans
i checked in dreamweaver and it appears to me that firefox has bad table recognitions? it doesnt seem to understand that a tag like this


<td bordercolor=#333333>


actually does mean that the color must be some greyscale... it just looks all weird and screwed? never saw such in IE though :) *bite me!*

i tried some html editing aswell because it might occur a tag is missing somewhere or a css thing overrules it but none bug is found....

but the tabs rock ;)

anyone got an idea?:confused: :evilgrin: Since when has "bordercolor" been a valid HTML tag attribute, for <td> or anything else? Is it some IE-specific thing that was never supported anywhere else? For certain if it ever was standard HTML it would be deprecated now in favour of CSS.

[vaaaska]

mmmmmmmmmmMac! :D

[piersk]

Originally posted by Weedpacket
Since when has "bordercolor" been a valid HTML tag attribute, for <td> or anything else? Is it some IE-specific thing that was never supported anywhere else? For certain if it ever was standard HTML it would be deprecated now in favour of CSS.

IIRC, it used to be a valid attribute but has been depreciated.

[The Chancer]

IE also lets you skim things - like badly formed javascript - which Firefox catches - See Tools->Javascript Console - very good for ironing out those details....

It is also strict on its tags - if IE sees something that shouldn't be there - it seems to ignore it - whereas Firefox will point this out to you...

Firefox rocks... nothing more to say...

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by The Chancer
IE also lets you skim things - like badly formed javascript - which Firefox catches - See Tools->Javascript Console - very good for ironing out those details....If nothing else, it's accurate about where it says errors are located!

It is also strict on its tags - if IE sees something that shouldn't be there - it seems to ignore it Which leads to the piles of garbage HTML out there cranked out by people who don't know what they're doing but think it's okay because "it looks all right in IE".

Originally posted by piersk
IIRC, it used to be a valid attribute but has been depreciated.
I thought it might be, but I searched right back to RFC1866 and couldn't find it at all - deprecated or otherwise.

Oh, and I thought of something else. Because Mozilla Firefox isn't so maliciously intertwined with the operating system, things like these (http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=10527700#post10527700) are harder to pull off (does anyone know of any significant security vulnerabilities in the current versions of either Mozilla or Firefox?)

[Mordecai]

Heh... I like the link back to the same post. ;)

[Merve]

Guys, us as computer nerds/geeks/experts use either Seamonkey, Firefox, Opera, or some other browser that isn't IE (or Netscape). The general public believes that if it looks fine in IE than it's good. Lots of JavaScript is IE specific and only works in IE. Lots of things only work in IE. Does the ordinary Joe take the time to care if another browser is better. No! As long as he can go to the Windows Update site he's happy as a clam. We cannot force other people to use Firefox (or other 'better' browsers) just because we think it's better. I use Seamonkey because I like its web dev tools and I'm scared of the security flaws. Are most people who use IE web developers? No!

Some people/organizations have taken strides to not use IE. At Carleton University, everybody uses Firefox (even though IE is installed on the computers by default).

To an ordinary Joe, another browser is just a waste of hard disk space. Who needs Firefox when you already have IE?

So, in the end, use the browser that makes you happy...I just might try out that Crazybrowser ;)

[ajdegans]

hmm well i learned html with dreamweaver... and when i need a bordercolor for something it came up with that... so i figured its a valid thing? you know :D

Anyway, no you guys tell me its not... depreciated is the term? *wth is that*

So whats the new tag then

*eagerly wants to fix his appearantly BAD HTML*

:( :bemused:

[BuzzLY]

Ok, Mordecai, that's just strange... notice that the post id for this thread is different than for that link? I think PHPBuilder has some DB problems... LOL

[piersk]

ajdegans: take a look at DWMX2k4... they've finally caught up with proper XHTML

[ajdegans]

maybe thats a good idea yes :) im on DWMX now :/


anyway im still wondering what the tag is now then?

[piersk]

Originally posted by ajdegans
maybe thats a good idea yes :) im on DWMX now :/

Even on MX, they still use crappy markup


anyway im still wondering what the tag is now then?

you can use the border (http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/css/box/border.html) property instead

[ajdegans]

*dives deeper and deeper into CSS*:D

But yes youre right... its better to have everything in CSS unlike just bits and pieces...

[ajdegans]

so this is lame?
http://www.willcam.com/cmat/html/tables.html#Table

look into the tags and notice the bordercolor thing coming up :):glare:

[LordShryku]

That's based off of a really old spec for HTML 3.2. If you wanted to do an inline style tag for this, which is current, you could do this:
<td style="border: 1px solid #000">

[ajdegans]

can aswell use an external css then, saves bandwidth ::D

Hey anyone know why my startmenu bookmarks give this error about a shortcut thats missing when i click it to open in firefox?

The bookmark works though but it says something about a missing .lnk on the desktop (im not having any there)

no error code or nothing...

[BuzzLY]

Originally posted by ajdegans
so this is lame?
http://www.willcam.com/cmat/html/tables.html#Table

look into the tags and notice the bordercolor thing coming up :):glare: Quite lame. Any attribute that has an image next to it, signifying that it's only for that particular browser, is not XHTML compliant. You need to use attributes that will work in any browser. Using basic table structures is what you need to do, and use CSS to change how they look.

If you want to REALLY see what CSS can do for you, take a look at this page (http://www.csszengarden.com/zengarden-sample.html) to see how simple HTML looks with no formatting whatsoever. Then, look at THIS page (http://www.csszengarden.com/) to see what the addition of CSS can do. That change is done with nothing but a CSS file. There are links on the page for other examples as well.

[ajdegans]

yeah as i said before? or am i imagining that :confused:

hehe anyway, ill use more css from now on.. i just rewrote my www.zerocom.ath.cx a bit and it looks quite fine :)

just one .css and alot of html with class things to define the particular table parts :) all embedded in a .php

erm, probably not said correctly but you get the point!:evilgrin:

[Travis]

Hmm.. I'll try out Firefox for a while I suppose. I currently used Avant which uses the IE core. ow I have a few questions about firefox :

How do I move the tabs to the bottom?

How can I get my old favorites from IE?

The rest I forgot.. lol

[The Chancer]

As for shifting the tabs - I don't know - but you can see your fav's from IE via Bookmarks and IMported IE Fav's....

Should all be in there..

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by BuzzLY
Quite lame. Any attribute that has an image next to it, signifying that it's only for that particular browser, is not XHTML compliant. You need to use attributes that will work in any browser.
And if you want the official references for (X)HTML, CSS, and a whole bunch of other things that 99% of the population has no use for, they'll be at http://www.w3.org/

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by Merve
To an ordinary Joe, another browser is just a waste of hard disk space. Heh, they're worried about hard disk space and they're using Windows? :D:D
Sorry. I guess that one was kind of obvious....

[ajdegans]

lol, when you pay some attention when installing win, you could save some space. but in the end its a enourmous program and growing every day...

Linux seems to be better with that? i heard...:confused: :confused:

[Travis]

Hmm the only way I see to import bookmarks is 1 by 1... oh well. Also I have another question. Is there a way to make it so all things that automatically open up in a new window, just open up in a new tab instead?

[ajdegans]

i imported my favs on install....

only thing is the start > favs folder is not updated with firefox ? and the url in start > favs give errors about shortcuts that are missing?

kinda weird!

Also i looked for a thing to open all links in a new tab, didnt find it! :(
you can (as you probably know) open links in a tab by rightclicking the link and select 'open in new tab', works for me :)

[Travis]

Yea but a lot of pages automatically open in a new window. Also, this <textarea> is all small and theres borders here and there that werent there in Avant ( IE with tabbed browsing and pop-up blocker. Oh well. Time to uninstall Firefox.

Another nice thing about Avant is that you can click the X at the top and it puts it into your task bar. Also, it saves your tabs automatically.

[goldbug]

Originally posted by Travis
Yea but a lot of pages automatically open in a new window. Also, this <textarea> is all small and theres borders here and there that werent there in Avant ( IE with tabbed browsing and pop-up blocker. Oh well. Time to uninstall Firefox.

It's funny that you blame the browser and not the website author. :D

[BuzzLY]

I like Firefox, and any tables that show up with strange borders are probably using tags that only IE knows. That's not Firefox's problem, it's bad HTML.

The problem I am having is that I am getting serious lag (delays) every time I try to do something, like clicking Submit. I don't have a seriously fast machine, but I should think any browser would work reasonably fast on any but the most ancient of boxes. It's more than a little frustrating.

The strange thing is that seems that if the button has current focus, it will click immediately. But when it doesn't, it takes almost a full second to get focus before it depresses. I might be inclined to blame Windows XP, but at the moment my resources are 97% free, and I don't have this problem in other programs (including IE).

[ajdegans]

im using win2k and firefox now... i have no problems with lagging submit buttons, just as fast as IE

only one thing.... where do i set the downloadmanager to download more than 2 objects at the same time :S i cannot seem to find it :queasy:

[LordShryku]

Here (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=74&e=3&u=/cmp/20040702/tc_cmp/22103407)'s a good article pertaining to the original subject of this thread. The Department of Homeland Security suggests that you stop using IE. :)

[ajdegans]

well im finding firefox lame aswell, and to have 2 lame browsers is just to much

*uninstalling firefox*

Unlike i said i thought its quite good it offers me nothing but crap... Bookmarks are not working right, downloads slow my internet down so much i cant even open a chatroom on irc (yes i have fast internet, 2240/420kbps DSL), many programs still open IE even when i set firefox to be the default browser...


just lame, can as well use IE then :)

sorry guys M$ beats firefox :evilgrin: hehe maybe on linux firefox is god but not for me on windoze ...:glare:

[LordShryku]

Hrmm....in one hand you have a "lame browser" which you can't get to work the way you want. In the other hand you have a "lame browser" which is ripe with security holes.

Well, yes, IE would be the obvious choice :rolleyes:

[ajdegans]

lol i prefer a less secure browser above one that is not working right at all :)

but if you have good alternatives *shoot*:D

[LordShryku]

Just because you can't get it to work "right", doesn't mean it's broken. Works just dandy for me :p

[ajdegans]

did i say its broken?, hm maybe i did in a way.....

:evilgrin:

[Travis]

You see heres the thing... I dont care who's fault it is. All I care is if my webpages show up right and my browser has the features I want.

[goldbug]

Originally posted by Travis
You see heres the thing... I dont care who's fault it is. All I care is if my webpages show up right and my browser has the features I want.

See, here is where you are probably mistaken. You are assuming that what IE shows you is "right".

what you expect !== what is "correct"

[Weedpacket]

I'm not using Firefox - still sticking with Mozilla (because of all the other bits it has) - and I'm wondering where the "lameness" is. It's faster at rendering; it renders PNGs accurately and progressive JPEGs progressively; manages about a dozen concurrent requests (as opposed to IE's four or so); doesn't give up as "bad" requests that are still waiting to begin download (unlike IE, which seems not to realise that the reason the response hasn't come back is because it hasn't even made the request yet); three different download displays (dialogue box, download manager, nothing at all) with multiple concurrent downloads assumed; control of where links are opened (new window, new tab, or current window) and at least four choices of how to configure that (I like being able to run down a contents page or index and open in a new tab a whole slew of pages - piling up thirty-odd tabs in the background - and then reading through them as they load: these forums are an example); in-page search for text and links; and basically more control over pretty much everything.

Off-hand I can't think of any sites I visit with any regularity that it renders badly. Certainly none that I've had any hand in developing.

It's looking like the people who think IE is preferable are those who already think IE is "best of breed", rather than "lowest common denominator" (stress lowest).

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by Travis
All I care is if my webpages show up right... For whom?

[ajdegans]

ok lets get one thing right here ;) im not saying IE rocks...

But atleast i get my pages without problems on screen...
and my bookmarks work alright, i at that point i prefer IE (for now)

but i said that earlier

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by ajdegans
But atleast i get my pages without problems on screen...
and my bookmarks work alright, Same here.

[Merve]

I've used Firefox and I just don't like it. it seems so stripped down to me. That's why I use Seamonkey.

All the pages I visit seem to render fine (except for the damn CBC website.) Many pages have started using a separate stylesheet for IE (I've had to do that now.)

I can see the points that Travis and ajdegans are stressing, though. It doesn't matter to them whether they are using a "good" browser are not. As long their pages render the way they were meant to look, they're happy. It's frustrating when pages don't look the right way in Mozilla. But I live with it. I know my browser is more secure. If a page doesn't work in Seamonkey, I can always open up IE. For me, though, Seamonkey is much EASIER and more CONVENIENT to browse with.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by Merve
As long their pages render the way they were meant to look, they're happy. I'm still wondering who "their" refers to in the above sentence ("i get my pages without problems", "my webpages show up right"). Pages they have written? "This site looks best by coming over and having a look at it on my computer"? Or pages on sites they are visiting? If that is the case, do they realise how much trouble they are causing for everyone else - including the developers of those sites, who are compelled to pander to them? And if they have to support IE, they can't do any of the things that IE can't do due to its broken support for standards?

Of course, I mustn't forget that the sites they'd be talking about were designed solely for the benefit of IE users. They probably use client-side VBScript. :)

Result: Microsoft maintains its grip. People won't change away from IE because too many sites are "designed for IE". As long as it "looks okay in IE" they're happy. People who have to put up with things like Lynx or braille readers can just go take a running jump.

[Weedpacket]

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20040704

[Merve]

lol weed!

Like I said, I don't use IE. But will random Joe touch something else? I know computer experts who REFUSE to use Mozilla. (For some reason, they're not really experts in my eyes :rolleyes: )