Down with Job Interviews!

[BuzzLY]

OK, I just got back from my 1st job interview in a while. My ass is killing me.

Let me preface by saying that I am a firm believer in honesty -- on your resumé, and in the interview. Lies have a way of coming back to haunt you later on.

So, of course I told the guy that I haven't worked steady since Dec '02, and have done some freelance consulting (and, of course, the book). "That's not a problem", he says with a smile. "You are obviously qualified to work with MySQL."

:) OK.

So, he tells me about his client. They need someone to go in and redo all of their databases. "It's a complete mess." That means data massaging, database normalization, the works. And don't lose a single record! If anyone has ever had to rework a database system that's already in place, you know what I'm talking about.

The client thinks it's a job that will take a few hours. The employer thinks I'll be in there from 6 months to a year. Hmm... seems to be a slight disparity there... but hey, you don't know until you go in and look, right?

I'm feelin' it so far. I like autonomy -- being in control and doing the project the way I think is best. It's a PHP/MySQL project. Sounds great, I'm interested.

"Ok, the client is looking to pay around $30/hr."

:glare:

You know that means the client will ask for $20/hr. "And it's probably about 16 hours per week."

:glare: :glare: :glare:

I have colleagues making 6 times that amount. for at least 40 hours/week. Heck, I used to make 6 times that amount. I know the market's not like it was 4 years ago (please don't get me started on Bush right now), but come on.

About this time, I'm feeling like a girl at the prom who just found out she was asked because she has a reputation for being easy. Time to put out, and get a hamburger and fries on the way home as your thanks.

Yeah, I've been out of work. That doesn't mean I'm not competent, or that I'm worth crap. But leave it to these companies to take advantage of the fact that you aren't working to dangle a stringy carrot in front of your face when you're starving.

So people tell me, "hey, it's better than what you're getting now." Yes, it sure is. If I haven't had sex in a while, should I be willing to bend over and "take it like a man?" Should I be happy about having to flip burgers for a living, if I can't find anything else? At least then the burger and fries would be free.

I don't mean to sound snobbish or ungrateful, but seriously... if they want a code monkey to pound out some code, the pay is fine. If they want someone to take over their databases and make them more efficient, and trust him to do so without losing data, and give them a good front end application to administer it, then they should be willing to pay for what they get.

It's not that I wouldn't take the job if nothing else comes along. And I'll do it with a smile, do a damned good job, and hopefully use the job as a stepping stone to something better. And sure, I could look for the silver lining. But I just can't help but feel like I am seriously being taken advantage of.

Any thoughts? Am I out of line? Do you like my new prom dress?

[pyro]

Might want to read Standing up for your rights (http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives/000720.php) over at SvN...

[BuzzLY]

Very inspiring. I wish I could have the 'nads to do such a thin, but I gotta eat, too. It's easier for a corporation to walk away than it is an individual that needs to put bread on the table.

But... it's pretty cool that there are some people that won't let these bullies run them over.

[dartcol]

Surely it's a case of dealing with the client directly and stating all the problems with the job, what can go wrong, how this could affect their data, and then what you'd do to prevent any of this happening. Or is it the case that they only go through the agency and you don't get to speak with the client directly.

I've always found that once in the interview and in a position to persuade then the horrors of what could happen often help to ease the wallet open a little more.

The job you're talking about would usually require an onsite developer earning £25000 - £28000 pro rata here in the UK, or about £30 an hour.

[drawmack]

and 30 pounds is about $52 according to http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi

[onion2k]

Originally posted by dartcol
The job you're talking about would usually require an onsite developer earning £25000 - £28000 pro rata here in the UK, or about £30 an hour.

£30/hour is £58,500/year. £25,000/year is about £13/hour.. Thats what I'm on.. and its less than $30/hour.

Buzz, you have an over-inflated opinion of what the job should pay. The fact is not what you are 'worth', its what the work is worth. And the work in this case is worth $30/hour (if that.. theres guys at my place on less doing the sort of thing you mention).

The myth of internet related stuff being terrificly complex is over. People won't pay over the odds anymore. Either live with less cash, or change career.

Sorry mate.

[BuzzLY]

Onion, I think you misunderstand the job. They have nobody to do the project at the company. I would not be working on a project with other people, pounding out some tasks. I wouldn't even have a manager type at the consulting company that's hiring me.

This company wants me to act as project manager, architect, developer, and database analyst. It's not just a simple matter of going in and massaging a few databases.

It's doing an analysis of their business process, coming up with a viable solution, comparing that solution to their current solution, producing the new solution (including planning, development, QA testing, and deployment). I am also expected to act as a sales person, keeping an eye out on new opportunities that might present themselves.

This is not a simple matter of looking at some code and databases and improving them. On top of all of the above, I am expected to make all of the appropriate decisions and implement them, and whose ass do you think will be removed upon failure?

That sort of responsibility and range of skills (which I relish and have, respectively) usually demand a much higher range of pay. A consulting company like the one some of my friends work for would demand close to $120/hour/person to send in a team, most likely consisting of a project manager, database analyst, and developer.

If I were working at a company now, and was looking for a new job, they would have offered me at least twice what was offered. And believe me, the job will take MUCH more than 16 hours per week. This guy didn't sound like he was willing to sign a progress report that contained more than 20 per week.

I was curious, so I took a look at Dice to see what a SQL Server database analyst with 4 years of experience would make (only one part of the job) for something like this. The average was $73 per hour. The low was $55, and the high was $95. And that's for a database analyst only. Not one that is also a project manager, PHP developer, and website designer.

Sorry mate, I don't think I'm out of line here. $30/hr is a bit low. I didn't mean to come off as some sort of snob, that I'm worth more. You are right, it's about what the job is worth, and this job is worth more. Unfortunately, the pay rate is being decided by a company that doesn't want to pay for what they truly want, and the consulting company has no idea of the complexity involved in such a project to know that the pay is crap.

I guarantee that if this were a .NET job, it would not be the same. This company thinks that since they are small, and using free, open-source products, that anyone developing them should come cheap too. I see this attitude way too often.

All that aside, what blows my stack is that they are completely taking advantage of my current job status. And they know that if I have no other prospects (I do), that I'll have to bend over and take it like a man. $480/week salary. After taxes, I MIGHT be able to pay my rent. How nice.

Did I mention that they don't offer medical insurance? I'd have to pay for that myself somehow.

[The Chancer]

Down with job interviews indeed...

All I wish is that someone would call me back...

"We have received your application" - would be nice...

But nothing.. not an e-mail, not a phone call, not even to say "sorry but you seem to not have the qualifications" Is that the norm ? (Not in any other industry I have worked in)

Anyone know of anyone hiring in the North - MCP qualified PHP/SQL programmer ?

<sigh> Guess I'll just have to keep looking and not hearing anything.....

[piersk]

Thats one thing that really got on my wobbly bits when looking for a placement. A simple letter saying "Thanks for your application, but you suck so we don't want you working here" (or something along those lines) would be nice, rather than just leaving you hanging there.

Anyway, I've finished my placement (Friday) and I'm already bored out of my mind. I'm off a-hunting for temp jobs this afternoon.

[BuzzLY]

I know what you mean. I have been out of work for a long time, and only one employer that didn't want to hire me told me so. Want to know who they were?

Google.

[drawmack]

I have found that the only people who replied to tell me they had decided not to hire me were universities and the US Government. Private industry just left it go.