Now taking bets on IE 7 (coming this spring or whatever)

[vaaaska]

Harrumph...it's all over the place. MS is to come out with an updated browser in the spring/summer of this year. There are certainly a billions reasons for doing this, the least of two being...

1) 3 years has passed them by and their current product sucks
2) Firefox is actually doing some damage to market share

Anyways, anybody want to place predictions and make wagers about new, said, updated 'product?

And with that...
--------------------------------------------------

It will essentially be a 'preview' of things Longhorn'ish (which will get pushed back even more eventually) and tout new things that will push standards even further while not adhering to any standards except the ones they think are proprietary.

However, it will do a better job with css and xml/rss feeds...

[Norman Graham]

Hi Vaaska

It'll probably do a bunch of stuff that Firefox does, e.g. tabbed browser windows. It'll have an improved pop-up killer and an improved system for switching JavaScript and DirectX on and off as you please.

It will include the Firefox facility for altering the skins via CSS, but using a GUI for people who don't know what CSS is, far less can write it.

It will include an option to activate mouse gestures, which will work in all sorts of unexpected ways.

It will include an FTP client with functions and buttons translated into idiot-proof language, e.g. 'picture file transfer' instead of 'binary transfer'.

It will include a very basic WHYSIWYG HTML editor and will include a simple XSLT/CSS facility for viewing XML in HTML.

It won't include JavaVM, Flash or Macromedia Player because MS will have managed to fall out with these companies once again. You'll have to downlaod and install them all yourself.

It will include a 'you get it whether you want it or not' MSN search toolbar in an attempt to discourage use of the Google toolbar.

It will include a one-click 'remove traces' facility so that you can delete cookies, temp files and history files in one fell swoop. It will remain silent about the existence of the unerasable index.dat file.

It will include a point n click bookmarklets facility for those who don't really know what bookmarklets are.

It will require about 3-4 serious security update patches in seperate downloads of 20 MB and more within 2 weeks of being released.

I think that's enough predictions for today.

Norm

[PickledOnion]

And still won't be able to render png images properly or css to correct standards....

[vaaaska]

Originally posted by PickledOnion
And still won't be able to render png images properly or css to correct standards....


if ($case == TRUE) {
print 'Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!';
}

[n00854180t]

Originally posted by PickledOnion
And still won't be able to render png images properly or css to correct standards....

You beat me to it. I'll do you one better though: It will break the already poor PNG rendering.

[dalecosp]

Blech. Probably Mozilla with a blue toolbar (like someone said, defaulting to MSN search) and an ActiveX plugin.

Nah, that'd be too good.

:D

[Weedpacket]

1) The default User-Agent string will still say "Mozilla compatible"
2) Someone will forget to remove the "about:mozilla" egg.

[pohopo]

it is about time they upgraded IE. The tab feature alone is enough reason to switch to firefox.

[goldbug]

And at some point during the reveal, Ballmer will do his monkey dance.

[piersk]

Originally posted by goldbug
And at some point during the reveal, Ballmer will do his monkey dance.

You mean like this (http://www.macboy.com/cartoons/ballmer/)

[goldbug]

Originally posted by piersk
You mean like this (http://www.macboy.com/cartoons/ballmer/)

Oh man, that's the funniest thing I've seen in a while. They even remembered to include the soaked pits. Thanks for making my morning :D

[pyro]

Originally posted by Weedpacket
1) The default User-Agent string will still say "Mozilla compatible"
2) Someone will forget to remove the "about:mozilla" egg. We should be so lucky...

[Roger Ramjet]

Originally posted by pohopo
it is about time they upgraded IE. The tab feature alone is enough reason to switch to firefox.

Security is the best reason to switch AWAY from IE, it's what drove me. Now when users moan because some website is IE only I just laugh, say 'Amatuers' and tell them tough they will have to shop somewhere else.

All I hope is that IE7 is as bad as most people (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/02/15/373104.aspx) expect. That should finish it off once and for all.

[vaaaska]

Originally posted by Roger Ramjet
All I hope is that IE7 is as bad as most people (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/02/15/373104.aspx) expect. That should finish it off once and for all.

“Yes, XP SP2 makes the situation better. We want more, sooner. We want security on top of the compatibility and extensibility IE gives us, and we want it on XP. Microsoft, show us your commitment.”

Oh. My. God.

[sneakyimp]

i thought we were taking bets. $20 says it will need a security patch within 30 days.

[Roger Ramjet]

Originally posted by sneakyimp
i thought we were taking bets. $20 says it will need a security patch within 30 days.

Just 1 security patch? No thanks.

$50 says it, or XP, will need a Service Pack within 3 months. :p

[sneakyimp]

ok...security patch....21 days. $20. :p

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by Roger Ramjet
Just 1 security patch? No thanks.

$50 says it, or XP, will need a Service Pack within 3 months. :p Oh, come now. It will need one immediately, promise one within three months, and deliver in 9 to 12 or when ($Longhorn || $Hell_freezes), which ever is first....

:D

[pohopo]

All I hope is that IE7 is as bad as most people expect. That should finish it off once and for all. MS will do what they do best, steal all the good stuff from firefox and put it in IE7. They will make it so the average users sees no difference between the two and then use their muscle to take back the 2%-3% they lost from firefox. (firefix will always have 3% or so of the market no matter what MS does)

I am more interested in seeing what Google might do as I heard they might be coming out with a browser.

[Roger Ramjet]

Well now. My reading of the IEBlog comments was that most people who posted had no faith that MS would actually respond to their requirements, like fix the rendering engine or add real support for png. This to the anger of the faithfull few.

Many WAN/LAN admins were also agrieved that IE7 would only run on XP - we are not about to remake our networks just for a browser, if only because of the upgrade costs.

So, yes, I think informed expectations are for the worst, ie the usual garbage inflicted on a captive audience by MickeySoft.

I expect their share to continue to decline, and this decline to progress exponentially. They only have such a large market share because IE is so tightly bundled with the windows operating system and the outcome of this will be the decline of windows as well - thanks be to anyone's Gods.

[vaaaska]

Originally posted by sneakyimp
ok...security patch....21 days. $20. :p

21? I'd venture it will be ripped to shreds in the first week...the security patch will be needed that soon, but won't be issued so quickly...

Speaking with some folks last night...considering what's been going on in Brazil with Linux, open source and patenting technology, MS has one chance to get this right (not with the browser, but with the OS). If they don't reinvent themselves and do things right this time, governments and corporations are going to leave and not go back.

It will be a good day...

[Weedpacket]

What I liked in that blog was the guy who reckoned that IE's failure to support standards was a good thing.
Also, for you interoperability clowns out there. You're always going on about how monocultures are bad. You often use biological arguments to back your points. Well, why are you so keen on standards then? Surely different software and platforms give 'genetic' diversity, different standards give memetic diversity.

Obviously a youngster.

Microsoft can't win type 1, because as soon as it innovates open sourcers will copy.That must be why every open source word processor today has a dancing paperclip.

[Roger Ramjet]

The thing I liked best about the blog is that it's on MSDN (Microsoft Developers Network for the uninitiated). Just shows what the developers who use MS stuff really think about it.

[Weedpacket]

I like this oneAfter 6 years of sitting around and blocking the web as much as possible in order to keep up its dominance in the client software market, microsoft announces vaporware that will ship 2 years late and be behind anything else that has been out there for years. And all of you M$ junkies rejoice - "finally, no more Firefox!". How stupid can you get?

[vaaaska]

WTF!? No... Yes? Ummm...reallly???

PNG? Fixing CSS bugs? Am I dreaming here...?

I've come to believe that the bugs were part of their marketing strategy, but what's going to happen when their browser is just like every body elses?? (You know what I mean).

We’ve heard some great feedback on what web developers would like to see in IE7, both from the responses to my last post and from the resources I referred to. The rest of the team was cranking away while I was away on parental leave, and I wanted to share a few details about what they were doing: The first couple of things they’ve done are:

Support the alpha channel in PNG images. We’ve actually had this on our radar for a long time, and have had it supported in the code for a while now. We have certainly heard the clear feedback from the web design community that per-pixel alpha is a really important feature.

Address CSS consistency problems. Our first and most important goal with our Cascading Style Sheet support is to remove the major inconsistencies so that web developers have a consistent set of functionality on which they can rely. For example, we have already checked in the fixes to the peekaboo and guillotine bugs documented at positioniseverything.net so use of floated elements become more consistent.

https://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/04/22/410963.aspx

[Jason Batten]

It wouldn't need a security patch if hippies would just stop hacking and realise the 60's are over. The evil corporations have won! JOIN THE DARK SIDE! :evilgrin:

[ZibingsCoder]

Heh...if MS started listening to the feedback more often, I'd laugh so fricken hard...

I mean, if MS fixed everything, what WOULD you complain about?

[davidjam]

I happen to think that most developers are less politically inclined than they sometimes sound. I think that if MS dramatically improves standards implementation that most developers will be grateful and glad to just get back to doing what they love.

The recurrant chant for the demise of MS only comes on the wake of an injustice which sometimes seems hopeless.

[pohopo]

Even after this browser goes into effect web developers will still need to code so sites work for IE6 for at least 5 more years.

Most still develop for IE4 so how much will this really change. The only good thing I see that will be useful now is the tabbed browsing.

[pyro]

Originally posted by pohopo
Most still develop for IE4 so how much will this really change.Nobody codes for IE 4 anymore... IE 5 is beginning to get touchy. But I agree with your point, this is in no way immediate relief. Let's just hope in 2010, we're not complaining about having to support IE 7...

[Komodo]

I use Avant Browser(For those of you that wanna talk about how it's basically a mod to IE, I already know so don't even mention it.)

I can't stand FireFox, it sucks. I told it to use the tabs, and it still kept opening new windows, and aesthetically.... I don't like it(not important to most people, but who'd use a browser that might as well be called poop browser). And It runs waaaay to slow. I have a cable modem, a majority of sites come up instantly, I try to go to google.com with firefox and it takes 5 seconds.
Screw Mozilla.



It will include a one-click 'remove traces' facility so that you can delete cookies, temp files and history files in one fell swoop. It will remain silent about the existence of the unerasable index.dat file.

Possible it is slim. Erasable it is.

[procoder]

I dunno, i actully have faith in MS to pull off a nice browser.

They posted a few screenshots of the beta with a new popup block and an addon manager, looks good to me.

Firefox is cool but IE still starts up faster and takes up less resources

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by procoder
They posted a few screenshots of the beta with a new popup block and an addon manager, looks good to me.New for IE. Years old for many others.

Firefox is cool but IE still starts up faster and takes up less resources Because it's always running, taking up resources, whether you're using it or not. (It's also running the desktop, which means that if IE crashes, the desktop can crash too.)

So, nothing that would make me consider changing.

[vaaaska]

Originally posted by procoder
They posted a few screenshots of the beta with a new popup block and an addon manager, looks good to me.

Where, I wanna see.

[procoder]

Originally posted by vaaaska
Where, I wanna see.

I am not sure, google.

They posted they a while back, even a year ago. I think its actully out with the leaked copies of longhorn and such

[bpat1434]

I’ve gotten questions about the ship date. Yes, we have a date in mind. I’ll talk about the date after we get feedback from customers and partners. We’re going to release a beta and listen, then refresh the beta and listen some more. We’ll ship when the product is ready.

...

Please know that the IE team is working hard. We’re eager to improve and better secure the web experience for the hundreds of millions of IE users around the world. We delivered on our part of XP SP2. We are actively delivering on our part of a great 64-bit Windows client. We continue to deliver on security updates for customers (across several versions of IE (back to IE 5.01) and Windows). We’re going to deliver on IE7.

That's all well and good, but exactly what standards? I believe that MS IE 7 is actually looking to be CSS 1 compatible, with SOME CSS 2 compatibility. The only problme is that CSS 3 is already in the works. Looks like MS is behind again!!

Not only that, the PNG compatibility won't matter, because most avid IE designers don't use PNG. I know I don't just because IE doesn't support it as it should. I.e. (lol ie) I use PNGs as my source, and then modify it as needed and export as gif or jp(e)g.

I'm going to say that IE will be more secure than the others, but it is a shame that they only want to develop for XP sp2. But why is that? Oh, that's right. They're money grubbing whores who want everyone to upgrade to an unstable OS so they can get another $250.00 per user before they release Longhorn in 2010 (basic guesstimate) which will still be behind Mac OS X Tiger (hahaha!!).

IE never has and never will support ALL the CSS code and guidelines. Nor will IE ever be the best browser. There's not enough user support to develop GREAT extensions and useful user tools. That's where Firefox shines.

Oh Oh Oh!!! And the developers of Mac's browser (Safari), actually are working to be the FIRST browser to pass the Acid2 Test (http://webstandards.org/act/acid2/). Basically, no browsers actually pass yet, but that is a test using the css2 syntax to create an image. It's really cool.

But if Safari developers are working to make it standards compliant, and updating as they go and releasing a patch to fix it, why can't IE?

But hey, that's just my thoughts.

So in recap:

-- IE will have plenty of bugs (like open ports and holes)
-- IE will need to be patched
-- IE will be at most CSS 1 with some css2 standards in it, but only after css 3 is released
-- IE will follow Firefox and Opera, but fall short
-- IE will still suck

Guess that just about covers it.

~Brett

[Jason Batten]

<play>"Love is in the air, every si..."<stop>

Can you feel the love :D, I know I can

Let's all hold hands and sing!

"I love Microsoft, Microsoft loves me too!"

Let's attack the World Wildelife Fund now, WWF pfft!

STUPID PANDAS RUINED WRESTLINGS NAME!

*Rock Bottoms a Panda then People elbow's the S.O.B.

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by bpat1434
So in recap:

-- IE will have plenty of bugs (like open ports and holes)
-- IE will need to be patched
-- IE will be at most CSS 1 with some css2 standards in it, but only after css 3 is released
-- IE will follow Firefox and Opera, but fall short
-- IE will still suck

Guess that just about covers it. Geek (~"alternative") browsers have the features important to geeks (who are basically "power users"); IE will have the features important to the marketing department....

It is a shame that for all their $$$$$ and supposed talent, they can't keep up with a few guys who hack code in the evenings...

And, umm, NetNerd; yeah; is school out for summer already? :D

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by dalecosp
And, umm, NetNerd; yeah; is school out for summer already? :D
<sings>
School's out for summer!
School's out for ever!
...
</sings>

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by Weedpacket
<sings>
School's out for summer!
School's out for ever!
...
</sings> Just don't take a bite out of any pandas :rolleyes:

:D

[vaaaska]

Let me revert to being 14 years old again...please, please, please...

I admit we almost added tabs to Word at one point.

f*** you!!! f*** you!!! f*** you!!! f*** you!!! f*** you!!! f*** you!!! f*** you!!! f*** you!!! f*** you!!!

you suck!

dieeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/05/16/417732.aspx

[vaaaska]

Oh wait...it doesn't stop there...

Oh. My. God.

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/5776/

Microsoft employees claim Apple lifted 'Spotlight' idea straight out of early builds of Longhorn

Monday, May 16, 2005 - 07:41 AM EST

"Microsoft's MSN division on Monday launched its Toolbar and Windows Desktop Search product after five months of beta testing. The new toolbar promises to give a taste what search experience Longhorn is expected to bring. Noticeably missing from the final release, however, was a tabbed browsing feature that appeared in early betas," Ed Oswald reports for BetaNews.

"Apple recently added a desktop search feature of its own within the latest version of its operating system, Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger. Called Spotlight, the feature works much like MSN's, which has caused some consternation internally within Microsoft," Oswald reports. "Some within have claimed that Apple lifted the idea straight out of early builds of Longhorn. Apple, on the other hand, said publicly that the idea for Spotlight had been in the works for several years -- long before any inklings of improved search capabilities within Windows came out of Redmond."

[bpat1434]

That's M$ trying to get more money and put Apple out of business. By saying that "We had it first daddy" the Gov't MIGHT step in and say it's a copyright violation or whatever within a year and take out more competition for M$. But who knows... I hate M$ but don't have time to learn linux right now, and my hardware isn't really supported.

~Brett

[Weedpacket]

So it's no relation to Google's product, then?

[vaaaska]

Originally posted by Weedpacket
So it's no relation to Google's product, then?

Spotlight has roots going back to BeOS. Apple even hired that particular engineer to work on Spotlight. But that is really beside the point...

I think more importantly we see MS trying to take credit for just about everything. I think the concept of Spotlight or searching the computer in a similar fashion is merely a common sense utility. I forget what they would call it exactlly, but it's something that would, should, could and will exist.