What languages do you know

[pohopo]

So what coding languages do you know? This would include db, server side, client side, thick client, markup, and any other form of language used for application development.

Also, which ones do you use the most now?

[halojoy]

:)
I know and use only 3, that I can think of:
PHP, HTML, CSS

I use PHP the most. This is why I joined this site.
:)

[MikeSnead]

Some way stronger than others, but in no particular order...

PHP, PERL, C, C++, ASP VBScript, SQL (My/MS/Postgre), JavaScript, Java, HTML, CSS.

I'm trying to play around with Python and Ruby now as well.

Mostly I use PHP/MySQL (running on Fedora) for personal and fun projects while at work I work 99% of the time with VBScript and an MSSQL server.

[leatherback]

Is itr brag-list time here?

PhP - /we all know some
CSS - /we all should know some
HTML - /we should know all
Javascript /me knows enough to get basic snippets done

IDL - Interactive datalanguage. Processing of ARRAY-based data. Linked with ENVI (Environment for visualizing images) the best tool for satellite data processing

AML - Arc Macro Language. Part of the ArcInfo spatial data processing package. Is now replaced by ArcGIS. Got the package this week. Think I now need to learn AVENUE :(

VBScript - Did some programming when I didn't have / know IDL. Quickly stopped when I tried doing 4-d array calculations.. (You can actually do them easily in PhP!)

C++: Hm.. Got the book, compiler, few snippets. Then found PhP, and started building websites..

GWBASIC - Who didn't start with that?

J

[pohopo]

Was interested in knowing all the different languages people knew. There are so many which have died or is used only in a very narrow field. Most of my experience is all geared towards web development.

I also found that once you have a good understanding of two languages the next language you learn is really easy. PHP was one of those that I learned pretty quickly.

[Elizabeth]

PHP (duh), HTML (duh), CSS (getting there, damn that goldbug), Javascript, Ruby/Rails (still playing around with)... those are mostly what I use nowadays, any prior languages I used long ago(ie, COBOL, AutoLisp, Basic :) ) have since gone by the wayside along with my knowledge of them. Since my brain has reached maximum capacity, if something new comes in, something else has to go out.

[halojoy]

Originally posted by leatherback
GWBASIC - Who didn't start with that?
I have an old ATARI 1040STFM in my attic.
It has the nice Motorola M68000 16-bit CPU.
If I remember correctly, I used GWBASIC to write programs for this Atari.
In the 80-ies.
:cool:

[goldbug]

Originally posted by Elizabeth
AutoLisp
Yay AutoLisp! :D A couple years ago I wrote a version of master mind using AutoLisp... that ran inside AutoCAD. It overlayed the drawing very tiny in the corner, so you looked like you were working on a file, but really trying to guess a color pattern :D

...Interesting that noone yet has mentioned SQL... how on earth are you feeding your PHP code? :D (j/k)

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by goldbug
Yay AutoLisp! :D A couple years ago I wrote a version of master mind using AutoLisp... that ran inside AutoCAD. It overlayed the drawing very tiny in the corner, so you looked like you were working on a file, but really trying to guess a color pattern :D Rock on! Here I thought I could use it to draw beams and stairs and crap like that. How silly of me.

[leatherback]

Hehe,

Beams and stars and stuff.. That was GWBASIC. Spent a whole christmas morning in the ?? 80-ies working onm entering a christmas carol in GWbasic, accompagnied by exploding fireworks in the background. Hm.. Eat your heart out, Macromedia!

[Elizabeth]

This is how nerdy I am... my brother and I had an Atari 800 (http://oldcomputers.net/atari800.html) and somehow we got our hands on a voice-recognition program (circa 1981 maybe? I think I was about 10) - we would type in dirty words and crack up at the mechanized voice that came back out at us. Our favorite was "hosebag" - it came out "Hozz - i - bag" and we still call each other that 20 years later.

Wow I just realized I really need to get a life.

[planetsim]

I didnt start with GWbasic, I however started with QBasic :glare:

Anyway the list as follows and in no particular order
- C/C++
- java
- perl
- php
- javascript (only started up again in past few months so a bit scratchy, but nothing my Bible cant handle :))
- mysql (looking into postgreSQL so anyone know of a book(s) or a decent tutorial(s) besides the manual)
- xml/xslt/html/css
- qbasic (I know it when i re-read school work, oh the joy)

Looking at doing more with java and c/c++ only did little bits but can make some basic console scripts :D

[Weedpacket]

See also
http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10216991
(Anyone else disturbed that I can remember that far back?)

[laserlight]

English, Chinese... sorry, wrong list :)

Well, I've been working with PHP and C++ for a while now, and learnt SQL along the way. Currently I'm learning Python - ironically in order to more effectively use SCons (http://www.scons.org) to build my C++ programs. Oh well :D

No, I'm sane enough not to code in INTERCAL....

[AstroTeg]

Taking computer science and several different jobs required me to learn the a collection of language over time.


QBASIC and whatever flavor BASIC was on the Apple //e back in the day, plus Visual BASIC

C/C++ - highlight here was having a couple small DOS apps go out to 7000+ computers nationwide

Assembler (Intel x86 flavor) - learned in computer science. Not very fluent in it but I appreciate those who code with it!

Web related languages:
Perl - not overly fluent in it
PHP
Java - not overly fluent in it but will have to be for fall semester
Python (Zope flavored)
ASP (JScript flavored)
HTML/CSS/JavaScript

At work, I'm actually working on a web app that I whipped up in PHP, then later coded it in Java and today I'm coding it in Python/Zope.

On a side note, anyone here good at picking up computer languages and not so good with people languages? I've tried French, German, and Russian and none of them come as easily as computer languages do for me.

[thorpe]

i'd like to think i had a bunch of languages under my belt, but i really only got into programming a few years ago. it all started back when i was producing experimental electronic music and wanted to make a website to promote it.

anyway, on to the list...

(x)html/css
asp (vbscript) - my first.
javascript - not fluent but enough to get by.
php - been doing it for about 8 months or so.
bash - only really started toying with this in the last few months since dissing windows for gentoo.

and ive toyed around a little with...

python - i'd love to get more into.
perl - never got past the third chapter of my book.
c - made a simple web server.
ruby - got really lost here. (meant to be the most popular language in japan)

needless to say that since i started getting into web developement (and programming in general) to promote my music i have since stopped making music and spend nearly all my waking hours either programming or reading about it.

im addicted i tell ya.

[cretaceous]

still a newb here..
anyway php/mysql, html/css and macromedia director's lingo

I'm surprised to see no one listing flash actionscript?

lingo was the first language I learned and I remember feeling my head almost exploding - it was like finding a whole new world existed on the other side - like learning Mongolian I guess

when I tried to transfer that to actionscript it didnt happen, I just don't like flash or actionscript but picking up php was like coming home (ahem, well it was till I found all the other things I didnt know)

[Drakla]

Bigtrak!

Did anyone get Karel thrown at them in computer science? PickBeeper and all that tripe.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by Drakla
PickBeeper and all that tripe. I remember coming across PICK/BASIC (http://www.jes.com/pb/) once - close enough to end up writing something in it (fortunately I forget just what).... I was shocked. Shocked, that something like that was still being used in the real^H^H^Hcommercial world. I guess it was a case of customer lock-in.

[Sgarissta]

PHP
PL/SQL (the LOVELY language for stored procedures in oracle)
C/C++
Objective-C (Mac OSX stuff, not very good at it, but I can mostly read it)
C#
VB/.NET
I took classes in Java, and Assembly once...
umm....I'm sure there are more languages, but these are the only ones I'm using in anyway these days.

[mtmosier]

I mostly just html/css/javascript/php/sql nowadays, with some C once in a while. I know the others listed to lesser degrees.

Commodore basic (started here), advanced basic, qbasic, pbasic, visual basic, asp vbscript
Javascript, asp jscript
Html/CSS
PHP
SQL, TSQL
C, C++
Bash shell scripting
Perl
Java
Pascal
Cobol

I did some JCL in school, but I can't remember anything about it now. Probably a good thing. Wish I could forget cobol too.

[Weedpacket]

Frankly I've lost count. At least seven; though I certainly don't use all of them on a daily basis (this thread has inspired me to go back and hack a bit in Otter).

[BuzzLY]

Does Logo count?

I have known/used quite a few different languages over the years -- Some more than others, of course. Basic, VBasic, ASP, PHP, LotusScript, Java, C++, tcl, Javascript, Assembler. HTML & XML if you consider them languages (I don't).

I even seem to remember working with machine language at one time, but that was a long time ago. There may be others, but I don't remember everything I've dabbled with.

Of course, the word "know" can be taken many ways. Technically, I don't truly grok any language -- if you mean "know" in that sense, then I'd have to say I know 0 languages. But I'm going to assume you meant "how many languages have you been in contact with at some point in your life?" :D

[pohopo]

I was thinking how many have you used to help build an application. (even if that something was small).

HTML & XML if you consider them languages (I don't).

They are definitely languages. Both are Markup languages. (I agree they are not programming languages).

[BuzzLY]

Good point. I have used all of the above to build apps of one sort or another. Even it was a "spinning baton" app that my high school teacher made us write (He wanted it in Basic, my friend and I wrote one in Basic, then a much faster one in Assembler that filled the screen :) ).

[TrickyPhillips]

Languages that I know (In the order that I learned them):

BBCode (Hehe)
HTML
ACTool (A macro language)
Visual Basic (I no longer use Windows, so this is useless)
Java
Shell (A bit)
PHP (More than Shell, less than Java)

[BuzzLY]

I wouldn't say PHP is "less" than Java -- just different.

[pohopo]

Originally posted by BuzzLY
I wouldn't say PHP is "less" than Java -- just different. I think he meant he just understands PHP more then Shell and Less then Java.

[TrickyPhillips]

Originally posted by pohopo
I am think he meant he just understands PHP more then Shell and Less then Java.

Hehe. Yes, that's what I meant.

'Twas my fault. Sorry to confuse you. :)

[leatherback]

Originally posted by BuzzLY
I wouldn't say PHP is "less" than Java -- just different.

I prefer Java, I think. Sunshine, cold drink and a bit of scuba diving.. Or programming? hm.. easy choice!

J

[justsomeone]

some of the more obscure stuff I have developed in in the past - either for fun, profit or education

VAX Assembler
Modula 2
Turbopascal
ZPL
postscript & PDF (if you're going to count HTML, then I'm going to count handcoding these babies :p )
awk
prolog
deplhi

and the first linux distro I experimented with was Yggdrasil!

Nowadays, the dayjob doesn't involve any programming, though they do like to bring in the "old man" once in a while for troubleshooting. I tinker about a lot in my own time on a few hobby site or casual earners, and that's mostly (but not exclusively) PHP / C.

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by Weedpacket
See also
http://www.phpbuilder.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10216991
(Anyone else disturbed that I can remember that far back?) Only slightly. That was my first thought, too: "OMG, did we leave a poll open *again*??"

Since that previous thread, I've mucked around in C and in sh. I've written in BASIC prior to Elizabeth's "hozibag" days, but that's about it....

I'm still not a programmer, I think. At least, I never get any done, it seems.

[cyberlew15]

Smashing point on the languages also C/C++ from when I was younger was so much different as just like php the languages are evolving. but anyway I with occasional reference to tutorials/ tips / manuals write PHP, Actionscript, Lingo, C/C++, Java & Mobile Phone Java, Assembler for x86, Gamecube and Ps2(with heavy reference to tutorials), HTML/XHTML(Not W3C compliant ooh), CSS, JavaScript, ASP, PERL, Various forms of basic, SHell script, DOS Batch, Delphi, Indigo Rose Scripting thingy for interactive CD Menus, Yarooze and Photoshop / PSP scripting.

Real challenge would be writing all of these fluently with no help and still complying to coding standards

Has anyone else noticed that people with bad grammar such as myself have sloppy code. :(

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by cyberlew15
Has anyone else noticed that people with bad grammar such as myself have sloppy code. :(
Eric S. Raymond has commented on the subject (http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#skills4):
Being a native English-speaker does not guarantee that you have language skills good enough to function as a hacker. If your writing is semi-literate, ungrammatical, and riddled with misspellings, many hackers (including me) will tend to ignore you. While sloppy writing does not invariably mean sloppy thinking, we've generally found the correlation to be strong — and we have no use for sloppy thinkers. If you can't yet write competently, learn to.

[cyberlew15]

Nice One Bruv But I'm not saying I cant't spell I'm saying sometimes I write code that could be more efficient and I'msaying thereis a link between this and my terrible English speaking grammar.

Also you really should not quote that guy he's a frikin moron i mean how clever can he be if he openly admits to hacking which is illegal in most civilised countries.:o

[BuzzLY]

No.


Cracking is wrong and illegal. Hacking is simply a slang term that means skillful coding. Unfortunately, it's being used more and more (usually by those that are NOT hackers) to mean using those skills to illegally break into networks, spread viruses, crack phone systems, etc.

There is even a Hacker Ethic that forbids the typical activities of a cracker.

If you would read Eric's Jargon File (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/index.html), you would see a chapter on Crackers, Phreaks, and Lamers (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/crackers.html), demonstrating that he too knows the difference between a true hacker and a cracker.

Let us all give thanks to the media for blurring the line between the two. At least we in the geek community know the difference, and can point those few wayward souls that have forgotten in the right direction.

[cyberlew15]

just because you do not change a file or cause destruction you still have no rights to take apart someones work and the tools such as soft ICE which hackers may use to observe programs donot make them skillful programmers a skillful programmer is just that and does not need to observe others work for inspiration or insight

[dalecosp]

"Hackers" don't reverse engineer commercial software. Not it they're really true to the ethic.

Once again, you seem to have meant to say "the tools such as soft ICE which crackers may use to observe programs" ... did you check the link BuzzLY gave you? (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/crackers.html)

[BuzzLY]

Originally posted by cyberlew15
just because you do not change a file or cause destruction you still have no rights to take apart someones work and the tools such as soft ICE which hackers may use to observe programs donot make them skillful programmers Agreed, except you should have used the term crackers there. Please re-read my post, and try opening your mind to the possibility that someone else might know what they're talking about. And as long as you are going to criticize others, please learn how to use punctuation. That way, when you do have a point worth considering, others will take you more seriously. a skillful programmer is just that and does not need to observe others work for inspiration or insight Um, wrong. Inspiration usually comes from some external stimuli, such as others' code. Insight is not a requirement for skill, and can be externally stimulated. For example: Weedpacket may post something that solves a problem I've been working on in a much more elegant way. In the future, I'll remember what he did, and hopefully learn from it. There is nothing wrong with that.

If he copyrights it, and encrypts it, and puts a note in his license agreement that I shouldn't reverse-engineer the code, then I won't do that. But as long as the source is available to me, I'll look it over as much as I want, and learn from it. That is how we grow and learn as programmers.

[dalecosp]

Originally posted by BuzzLY
If he copyrights it, and encrypts it, and puts a note in his license agreement that I shouldn't reverse-engineer the code, then I won't do that. But as long as the source is available to me, I'll look it over as much as I want, and learn from it. That is how we grow and learn as programmers. And this is why "open source" is a very, very, very good thing ....

[Weedpacket]

I'll give another quote from the introduction (and provide the link (http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#what_is) again, because cyberlew15 missed it the first time around):

There is another group of people who loudly call themselves hackers, but aren't. These are people (mainly adolescent males) who get a kick out of breaking into computers and phreaking the phone system. Real hackers call these people ‘crackers’ and want nothing to do with them. Real hackers mostly think crackers are lazy, irresponsible, and not very bright, and object that being able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer. Unfortunately, many journalists and writers have been fooled into using the word ‘hacker’ to describe crackers; this irritates real hackers no end.

The basic difference is this: hackers build things, crackers break them.

[mtmosier]

Originally posted by dalecosp
"Hackers" don't reverse engineer commercial software. Not it they're really true to the ethic.
Exactly. Reverse engineering is wrong. That's why we all use authentic IBM PCs instead of those evil clones.

[planetsim]

Originally posted by mtmosier
Exactly. Reverse engineering is wrong. That's why we all use authentic IBM PCs instead of those evil clones.

So what does hardware have to do with Software? I see nothing wrong with PCs other than authentic IBM ones, its called competition, and healthy competition at that.

[mtmosier]

Originally posted by planetsim
So what does hardware have to do with Software? I see nothing wrong with PCs other than authentic IBM ones, its called competition, and healthy competition at that.
So competition is good, but only as long as you limit it to hardware?

[cyberlew15]

Atno poin did I say that they looked at open source code it's a given that that is acceptable but taking codethat is not their own whether it is to merely observe the codeis wrong.

a lot of windows bugs are found by real hackers which to some may sound useful but the "Crackers" use this information so it is wrong to do so. Also by the way I stated that my grammar is bad and inherently a subset of grammar is punctuation. also to innovate is to create something completelynew so no it is not done fromother peoples code. for example If i build my own bike wheel that is not innovation but rather creation.

I'mnot saying hackers are destructive I'm saying there like oldladies nitpicking at code that they have no rights to spy on. If they want toi look at code andfind problems they should become debuggers for majour software companies

In short they indirectly through their knowledge enable others to do serious harm. I'mnot saying they should'nt existI'm simply stating that they don't do any real good. Also someone that invents software is klnown as a software engineer not a hacker.

[Weedpacket]

Well I claim that authors should never read other authors' work; they should be able to get their inspiration without it.

Hackers built the Internet.

[laserlight]

just because you do not change a file or cause destruction you still have no rights to take apart someones work
You're working on the assumption that hackers work towards unauthorised breach of security in computer systems. Eric Raymond's definition of hacker doesnt exclude that, but (where computer hackers are concerned) emphasis is placed on expertise in software development, and the related culture and attitude.

and the tools such as soft ICE which hackers may use to observe programs donot make them skillful programmers
Ah, but the term hacker here may be applied to the authors of such software, not to mere lusers.

Atno poin did I say that they looked at open source code it's a given that that is acceptable but taking codethat is not their own whether it is to merely observe the codeis wrong.
At no point does Eric Raymond suggest that one has carte blanche with any and all software code - in fact, such a free reign would render open source software redundant.

also to innovate is to create something completelynew so no it is not done fromother peoples code.
cyberlew15, I presume you do not code in PHP, and in fact, you write software using a computer of your own making, with programming languages of your own making. Hold on, you use computers? How unoriginal.

Well I claim that authors should never read other authors' work; they should be able to get their inspiration without it.
That's debatable, I suppose. I read that fantasy author David Eddings claimed to have avoided reading books of his specialty genre so as to avoid getting his own work polluted by the ideas of others. Yet surely at some point he got his inspiration from something, be it from books he read as a child, or even events he experienced not long before writing his books.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by cyberlew15
In short they indirectly through their knowledge enable others to do serious harm. I'mnot saying they should'nt existI'm simply stating that they don't do any real good. I think you need to check your text editor - it keeps dropping spaces.

Which would you prefer if a vulnerability existed in an application? Someone finds it, brings it to the attention of the application's developers, so that they can fix it, and to the public, so that they can respond to minimise its effects; or would you prefer to have someone with malicious intentions stumble across it first and use it to wreak havoc? Security through obscurity just does not work.

Oh, and since you seemed to miss this link (http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#what_is) again and are persisting with having a rather quaint and distorted idea about what the word means, I'm giving it again. Third time's the charm, eh?What Is a Hacker?

The Jargon File (http://www.catb.org/jargon) contains a bunch of definitions of the term ‘hacker’, most having to do with technical adeptness and a delight in solving problems and overcoming limits. If you want to know how to become a hacker, though, only two are really relevant.

There is a community, a shared culture, of expert programmers and networking wizards that traces its history back through decades to the first time-sharing minicomputers and the earliest ARPAnet experiments. The members of this culture originated the term ‘hacker’. Hackers built the Internet. Hackers made the Unix operating system what it is today. Hackers run Usenet. Hackers make the World Wide Web work. If you are part of this culture, if you have contributed to it and other people in it know who you are and call you a hacker, you're a hacker.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by laserlight
That's debatable, I suppose. I read that fantasy author David Eddings claimed to have avoided reading books of his specialty genre so as to avoid getting his own work polluted by the ideas of others. Yet surely at some point he got his inspiration from something, be it from books he read as a child, or even events he experienced not long before writing his books. You must admit that it makes a pretty weak case: one writer's personal preference regarding a single genre against a blanket ban.

[pohopo]

Going off subject a little with the wording...

I know a hacker is supposed to be a skillful programmer, but I find the word used confusing. The literal definition of hack means to chop or break up. However, a skillful programmer creates new things. So to a lame person (like myself) a hacker would be someone that chops or breaks up programs.

And as a person not all that young anymore I honestly don't ever remember a time when hacker only meant a skillful programmer, it always had the second meaning of a person that hacks into computers and software.

[cyberlew15]

:p soz for the dropping of spaces. also I did not say I was against using tools I just dont build my computer to program on transistor by transistor. but for your point about my programming on someone elses invention I dont just program for PC's I also do Playstations,Gamecubes, X-boxes, Dreamcasts, MACS and various other household appliances which I don't claim to have hacked or built with my own two hands.

:rolleyes: I think also you will find that the internet was built by productive people with jobs that were being paid by the english to invent a communications system encoded and sent via a packeted protocol, which then was used by radio ameteurs to host BBS's and then years later the modern internet over high speed telecomunicatrions links was conceived. Hackers never built the internet they abused it.

:DFurthermore would you prefer to have someone with malicious intentions stumble across it first and use it to wreak havoc? Security through obscurity just does not work.

:confused: WTF? people that crack are talentless idiots that usually consist of 13 year old's that want to play half-life 2 or IM to each other about how much they do not know they only have the knowledge given to them from meloncholly hackers

:glare:One last retort hackers don't modify hardware people that do are called electronics experts. other people that cause mischeif and invent mobile phone / console chips are called phreakers because they are mostly phreaks( with exception to developers that do not wantto pay £,000's for development consoles/software :) ).

[justsomeone]

Originally posted by pohopo
Going off subject a little with the wording...

I know a hacker is supposed to be a skillful programmer, but I find the word used confusing. The literal definition of hack means to chop or break up. However, a skillful programmer creates new things. So to a lame person (like myself) a hacker would be someone that chops or breaks up programs.

And as a person not all that young anymore I honestly don't ever remember a time when hacker only meant a skillful programmer, it always had the second meaning of a person that hacks into computers and software.

Sorry for quoting the full message, but this thread is breaking off into multiple conversations...

The verb "to hack" doesn't just mean to cut, see this definition from the Cambridgedictionary
to manage to deal successfully with something:
I tried working on the night shift for a while, but I just couldn't hack it.

(This in turn could derive from "cutting a path" which is another usage of hack... eg to hack your way through the jungle with a machete.)

It's usally used in the negative as in the above example, but in the positive it means to manage to deal successfully, to come up with a solution, etc etc

It can also be qualified: say you discovered a problem very late in a project life cycle, when it ws too late to redesign the solution. You might find some ugly, inelegant workaround which will get over the hump but will need to be dealt with properly during a subsequent project. That ugly workaround might be called "a quick and dirty hack".

So, if you have a tricky problem, and you figure out a solution, you've hacked it!

This, as far as I know, is the source of the term "hacker" which I'm sure predates programming.

In fact, here (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hack) is some more etymology of the term which observes that "hack" meaning "to try, to attempt" was first recorded in 1898.

Incidentally, describing a person as a hack as distinct from a hacker is very different. A hack is a person of not above average skill in the task at hand.

[BuzzLY]

Cyberlew, read this thoroughly. If after reading this you insist on your twisted ideas about what a hacker truly is, then I'm afraid we're going to have to label you "troll." Not all attention is good attention, my young padawan.
from the Jargon File:

hacker

<person, jargon> (Originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe) 1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary.

2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming.

3. A person capable of appreciating hack value.

4. A person who is good at programming quickly.

5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does work using it or on it; as in "a Unix hacker". (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who fit them congregate.)

6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might be an astronomy hacker, for example.

7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.

8. (Deprecated) A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around. Hence "password hacker", "network hacker". The correct term is cracker.

The term "hacker" also tends to connote membership in the global community defined by the net (see The Network and Internet address). It also implies that the person described is seen to subscribe to some version of the hacker ethic.

It is better to be described as a hacker by others than to describe oneself that way. Hackers consider themselves something of an elite (a meritocracy based on ability), though one to which new members are gladly welcome. Thus while it is gratifying to be called a hacker, false claimants to the title are quickly labelled as "bogus" or a wannabee".Cyberlew, we are a pretty fun-loving, laid-back group of people on this board. Don't alienate yourself by becoming a troll. Accept the fact that there are many smart people here who know exactly what a hacker truly is, and you would be well served to listen and learn, rather than attempt to impress them with your presumably shallow depth of technical knowledge. One thing you will learn as you get older: it's okay to be wrong, admit it, ask for help, and learn from your mistakes. Perhaps someday soon you will learn this lesson, before Elizabeth starts brandishing the LART! :D

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by BuzzLY
Accept the fact that there are many smart people here who know exactly what a hacker truly is, and you would be well served to listen and learn, rather than attempt to impress them with your presumably shallow depth of technical knowledge. And also know that some of us are "hackers" because we cough really loudly.
One thing you will learn as you get older: it's okay to be wrong, admit it, ask for help, and learn from your mistakes.Believe me, Buzz knows what he's talking about here. He's practically an expert on the subject. Perhaps someday soon you will learn this lesson, before Elizabeth starts brandishing the LART! :D Wow, 2 LARTings in one week! The ol girl is getting her workout!

[goldbug]

No no! keep him going! feed the troll! We've almost proven Godwin's Law once again :D

[Weedpacket]

I'm getting exhausted; I don't think I can hack this thread any more.

:rolleyes: I think also you will find that the internet was built by productive people with jobs that were being paid by the english to invent a communications system encoded and sent via a packeted protocol, which then was used by radio ameteurs to host BBS's and then years later the modern internet over high speed telecomunicatrions links was conceived. Hackers never built the internet they abused it.I must have a better grasp of the history of the Internet than you, then - or maybe you just live on a different planet. Quick question: when was RFC1 published?

I met some of those people, and yes, they are hackers - some of them are engineers, too. (I recall RFC1 was written in a bathroom because that was the only place with sufficient horizontal surface that wasn't covered by sleeping bodies. I don't recall why the house was so crowded.)

The only reason you think hackers abuse the Internet and didn't build it is because of your faulty understanding of the word. And that is entirely your own problem; certainly it's not through any failing on our part.

[TheDefender]

Can we puhhhhleeeease bring this one back on topic?

I know English... ;-)

I talk good Englush. At leest dat's wat my teecher telled me.
Oops, you meaned programin' languages? Lingo, PHP, C++ fur me.

Sorry, had to step in here, Mills Lane style, and break this ear biting up a bit.

[Jason Batten]

The only reason you think hackers abuse the Internet and didn't build it is because of your faulty understanding of the word. And that is entirely your own problem; certainly it's not through any failing on our part.Hey Weedpacket, um, well maybe you and all the other hackers as you call yourself can redefine the word for us so we understand, please?

Apparently you say the word cracker is better meant for to common definition of the word hacker.

So, do teach away oh master :confused:

And Elizabeth you really should give up those cigars :rolleyes:

[planetsim]

I think most get confused because if you take cracker out hacker can be defined by two principles

White Hat Hackers - Definition by WikiPedia
A Whitehat, also rendered as White hat or White-hat, is, in the realm of Information technology, a name that describes a person who is ethically opposed to the abuse of Computer systems. Realizing that the Internet now represents human voices from all around the world makes the defense of its integrity an important pastime for many. A Whitehat generally focuses on securing IT Systems whereas a Blackhat (the opposite) would like to break into them, but this is a simplification. A Blackhat will wish to secure their own machine and a Whitehat might need to break into a Blackhat's machine in the course of an investigation. What exactly differentiates a Whitehat and a Blackhat is open to interpretation but Whitehats tend to cite altruistic motivations.

Black Hat Hackers - Definition by WikiPedia
n the computer security community, a black hat is a skilled hacker who uses his or her ability to pursue their interest illegally. They are often economically motivated, or may be representing a political cause. Sometimes, however, it is pure curiosity.

The term comes from old Western movies where heroes typically wore white or light-colored hats and outfits, and the villains wore black outfits with black hats.*

There is also the term "black hat and mirror shades," which is only loosely related to this definition of a Black Hat. Instead, this term refers to the stereotypical image of mysterious government agents. See Black Hat and Mirror Shades.

Now as you can see that seems pretty clear cut but it just started to blend in as hacker. Now this doesnt state that White Hat Hackers dont hack systems

WikiPedia - White Hat Hacker - Security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker#Hacker:_Security_expert)
There is a third meaning which is a kind of fusion of the positive and pejorative senses of hacker. The term white hat hacker is often used to describe those who attempt to break into systems or networks in order to help the owners of the system by making them aware of security flaws, or to perform some other altruistic activity. Many such people are employed by computer security companies (such professionals are sometimes called sneakers). Collections of these people are often called tiger teams.

The term hacker though in the context we are using is this however
Wikipedia - Hacker Definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker#Hacker:_Brilliant_programmer)
The positive usage of hacker (the "proper" usage). One who knows a (sometimes specified) set of programming interfaces well enough to write software rapidly and expertly. This type of hacker is well-respected, although the term still carries some of the meaning of hack, developing programs without adequate planning. This zugzwang gives freedom and the ability to be creative against methodical careful progress.

At their best, hackers can be very productive. The downside of hacker productivity is often in maintainability, documentation, and completion. Very talented hackers may become bored with a project once they have figured out all of the hard parts, and be unwilling to finish off the "details". This attitude can cause friction in environments where other programmers are expected to pick up the half finished work, decipher the structures and ideas, and bullet-proof the code. In other cases, where a hacker is willing to maintain their own code, a company may be unable to find anyone else who is capable or willing to dig through code to maintain the program if the original programmer moves on to a new job.

Types of hackers in this sense are gurus and wizards. "Guru" implies age and experience, and "wizard" often implies particular expertise in a specific topic, and an almost magical ability to perform hacks no one else understands.

Now just because they are called hackers doesnt mean there Title cant be also Software Engineer, Application Developer etc its just a group way to call them and most that have either titles and more consider themselves hackers.

Now compare Black Hat Hackers to Crackers

Again using WikiPedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker#Hacker:_Intruder_and_criminal)
The most common usage of "hacker" in the popular press is to describe those who subvert computer security without authorization or indeed, anyone who has been accused of using technology (usually a computer or the Internet) for terrorism, vandalism, credit card fraud, identity theft, intellectual property theft, and many other forms of crime. This can mean taking control of a remote computer through a network, or software cracking. This is the pejorative sense of hacker, also called cracker or black-hat hacker or simply "criminal" in order to preserve unambiguity.

Now although they arent explained exactly as the quotes from weedpacket, they still get to the same point.

Now cyberlew15 if this doesnt help you understand what the real term means, then well I guess your gonna have a hard time communicating with us hackers

[Jason Batten]

Well, why would "white hat hackers" use the word hacker when they known that it is more commonly known to common people to define the black hat hackers :confused:

It just causes confusion. Makes people think the worst by nature and starts silly little arguments.

Although IMO, most white hat hacker are just black hat hackers looking to take advantage of their knowledge.

Of course thats being judgemental and not thinking of the individual. I believe there should be no reason to have hackers at all. That's if people respected each other.

*rolls up weedpacket in a rug and smokes him

Lets hold hands *puts on John Lennon - Imagine

*Sways side to side

[justsomeone]

Just a few more comments on the hacker / cracker things...

There are more hackers than the sum of White Hat and Black Hats. Most (at least in my experience) hackers are niether. They don't go attacking systems, but neither do they set about to save the world. They just invest time and energy in an activity that they get a kick out of.

Also, standing on either side of the definition debate and demanding absolute authority is a pointless exercise in the english language. The meaning of english words changes depending on how they are used. The dictionaries just try to keep up.

There was no authority which decreed that "henceforth, the word 'gay' shall not only be used in the sense of 'cheerful' but shal also mean 'having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex'". People just started using the word in that context, and the dictionaries moved on to reflect this. In fact a quick sample of dictionaries here shows that the more recent usage is now listed before the older one, reflecting the more common usage of the word.

Words tend to eventually come to mean what people think they mean. So if most people think "hacker" means "someone who breaks into other people's computer systems", then that's effectively what it does mean. The dictionaries will come to catch up.

[Weedpacket]

Originally posted by NetNerd85
Hey Weedpacket, um, well maybe you and all the other hackers as you call yourself can redefine the word for us so we understand, please? A wee bit of a history lesson (http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/hackers.html), then:
The roots of the hacker culture can be traced back to 1961, the year MIT took delivery of its first PDP-1 minicomputer. The PDP-1 was one of the earliest interactive computers, and (unlike other machines) of the day was inexpensive enough that time on it did not have to be rigidly scheduled. It attracted a group of curious students from the Tech Model Railroad Club who experimented with it in a spirit of fun. Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution [Levy] entertainingly describes the early days of the club. Their most famous achievement was SPACEWAR, a game of dueling rocketships loosely inspired by the Lensman space operas of E.E. “Doc” Smith.[18]

Several of the TMRC experimenters later went on to become core members of the MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab, which in the 1960s and 1970s became one of the world centers of cutting-edge computer science. They took some of TMRC's slang and in-jokes with them, including a tradition of elaborate (but harmless) pranks called “hacks”. The AI Lab programmers appear to have been the first to describe themselves as “hackers”.After that, newspaper journalists who wouldn't know a bit shift from a backrub thought that "hacker" meant someone who broke into computer installations (probably in light of those pranks). And so the word became misused by other people who didn't know what they were talking about. And tough titty to them.


Of course, since when has any subculture gone out of its way to make its argot immediately comprehensible to outsiders? I mean, what would be the point?

[cyberlew15]

The History of the internet 101

1957
The USSR launches Sputnik, the first artificial earth satellite. In response,the United States forms the Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) within theDepartment of Defense (DoD) to establish US lead in science and technology applicable to the military.

1962
RAND Paul Baran, of the RAND Corporation (a government agency), was commissioned by the U.S. Air Force to do a study on how it could maintain its command and control over its missiles and bombers, after a nuclear attack. This was to be a military research network that could survive a nuclear strike, decentralized so that if any locations (cities) in the U.S. were attacked, the military could still have control of nuclear arms for a counter-attack.

Baran's finished document described several ways to accomplish this. His final proposal was a packet switched network.

"Packet switching is the breaking down of data into datagrams or packets that are labeled to indicate the origin and the destination of the information and the forwarding of these packets from one computer to another computer until the information arrives at its final destination computer. This was crucial to the realization of a computer network. If packets are lost at any given point, the message can be resent by the originator."

1968
ARPA awarded the ARPANET contract to BBN. BBN had selected a Honeywell minicomputer as the base on which they would build the switch. The physical network was constructed in 1969, linking four nodes: University of California at Los Angeles, SRI (in Stanford), University of California at Santa Barbara, and University of Utah. The network was wired together via 50 Kbps circuits.

1972
The first e-mail program was created by Ray Tomlinson of BBN.

The Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) was renamed The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (or DARPA)

ARPANET was currently using the Network Control Protocol or NCP to transfer data. This allowed communications between hosts running on the same network.

1973
Development began on the protocol later to be called TCP/IP, it was developed by a group headed by Vinton Cerf from Stanford and Bob Kahn from DARPA. This new protocol was to allow diverse computer networks to interconnect and communicate with each other.

1974
First Use of term Internet by Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn in paper on Transmission Control Protocol.

1976
Dr. Robert M. Metcalfe develops Ethernet, which allowed coaxial cable to move data extremely fast. This was a crucial component to the development of LANs.

The packet satellite project went into practical use. SATNET, Atlantic packet Satellite network, was born. This network linked the United States with Europe.Surprisingly, it used INTELSAT satellites that were owned by a consortium of countries and not exclusively the United States government.

UUCP (Unix-to-Unix CoPy) developed at AT&T Bell Labs and distributed with UNIX one year later.

The Department of Defense began to experiment with the TCP/IP protocol and soon decided to require it for use on ARPANET.

1979
USENET (the decentralized news group network) was created by Steve Bellovin, a graduate student at University of North Carolina, and programmers Tom Truscott and Jim Ellis. It was based on UUCP.

The Creation of BITNET, by IBM, "Because its Time Network", introduced the "store and forward" network. It was used for email and listservs.

1981
National Science Foundation created backbone called CSNET 56 Kbps network for institutions without access to ARPANET. Vinton Cerf proposed a plan for an inter-network connection between CSNET and the ARPANET.

1983
Internet Activities Board (IAB) was created in 1983.

On January 1st, every machine connected to ARPANET had to use TCP/IP. TCP/IP became the core Internet protocol and replaced NCP entirely.

The University of Wisconsin created Domain Name System (DNS). This allowed packets to be directed to a domain name, which would be translated by the server database into the corresponding IP number. This made it much easier for people to access other servers, because they no longer had to remember numbers.

1984
The ARPANET was divided into two networks: MILNET and ARPANET. MILNET was to serve the needs of the military and ARPANET to support the advanced research component, Department of Defense continued to support both networks.

Upgrade to CSNET was contracted to MCI. New circuits would be T1 lines,1.5 Mbps which is twenty-five times faster than the old 56 Kbps lines. IBM would provide advanced routers and Merit would manage the network. New network was to be called NSFNET (National Science Foundation Network), and old lines were to remain called CSNET.

Backbones: 50Kbps ARPANET, 56Kbps CSNET, plus satellite and radio connections - Hosts: 1024
1985
The National Science Foundation began deploying its new T1 lines, which would be finished by 1988.

1986
The Internet Engineering Task Force or IETF was created to serve as a forum for technical coordination by contractors for DARPA working on ARPANET, US Defense Data Network (DDN), and the Internet core gateway system.

1987
BITNET and CSNET merged to form the Corporation for Research and Educational Networking (CREN), another work of the National Science Foundation.

1988
Soon after the completion of the T1 NSFNET backbone, traffic increased so quickly that plans immediately began on upgrading the network again.
Backbones: 50Kbps ARPANET, 56Kbps CSNET, 1.544Mbps (T1) NSFNET, plus satellite and radio connections - Hosts: 56,000
1990

(Updated 8/2001) Merit, IBM and MCI formed a not for profit corporation called ANS, Advanced Network & Services, which was to conduct research into high speed networking. It soon came up with the concept of the T3, a 45 Mbps line. NSF quickly adopted the new network and by the end of 1991 all of its sites were connected by this new backbone.

While the T3 lines were being constructed, the Department of Defense disbanded the ARPANET and it was replaced by the NSFNET backbone. The original 50Kbs lines of ARPANET were taken out of service.

Tim Berners-Lee and CERN in Geneva implements a hypertext system to provide efficient information access to the members of the international high-energy physics community.
Backbones: 56Kbps CSNET, 1.544Mbps (T1) NSFNET, plus satellite and radio connections - Hosts: 313,000

1991
CSNET (which consisted of 56Kbps lines) was discontinued having fulfilled its important early role in the provision of academic networking service. A key feature of CREN is that its operational costs are fully met through dues paid by its member organizations.

The NSF established a new network, named NREN, the National Research and Education Network. The purpose of this network is to conduct high speed networking research. It was not to be used as a commercial network, nor was it to be used tosend a lot of the data that the Internet now transfers.

1992
Internet Society is chartered.

World-Wide Web released by CERN.

1993
InterNIC created by NSF to provide specific Internet services: directory and database services (by AT&T), registration services (by Network Solutions Inc.), and information services (by General Atomics/CERFnet).

Marc Andreessen and NCSA and the University of Illinois develops a graphical user interface to the WWW, called "Mosaic for X".

1994
No major changes were made to the physical network. The most significant thing that happened was the growth. Many new networks were added to the NSF backbone.Hundreds of thousands of new hosts were added to the INTERNET during this time period.

Pizza Hut offers pizza ordering on its Web page.

First Virtual, the first cyberbank, opens.

ATM (Asynchronous Transmission Mode, 145Mbps) backbone is installed on NSFNET.

1995
The National Science Foundation announced that as of April 30, 1995 it would no longer allow direct access to the NSF backbone. The National Science Foundationcontracted with four companies that would be providers of access to the NSF backbone (Merit). These companies would then sell connections to groups, organizations, and companies.

$50 annual fee is imposed on domains, excluding .edu and .gov domains which are still funded by the National Science Foundation.

1996
Most Internet traffic is carried by backbones of independent ISPs, including MCI, AT&T, Sprint, UUnet, BBN planet, ANS, and more.

1996+ the Internet Society, the group that controls the INTERNET, is trying to figure out new TCP/IP to be able to have billions of addresses, rather than the limited system of today. The problem that has arisen is that it is not known how both the old and the new addressing systems will be able to work at the same time during a transition period.
(Author's Note: The content of this guide was compiled in 1997. Obviously much has happened since this time. Please seek other resources for newer advancements.)

CooWoar If you just managed to read all of that with out getting your mommy to help you you may have just learned something yourself:rolleyes:

[Weedpacket]

Come on, give credit where it's due.

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2235.txt

Oh, you missed one:
1975
"Jargon File", by Raphael Finkel at SAIL, first released (Eric S. Raymond)


PS: Your point being ... what, exactly?

[planetsim]

"oh so the internet comes on computers now?!"

[BuzzLY]

Originally posted by cyberlew15
The History of the internet 101

<copy, copy, copy>

<paste, paste, paste>

CooWoar If you just managed to read all of that with out getting your mommy to help you you may have just learned something yourself:rolleyes: I find this hilarious. You manage to insult everyone you believe has low intelligence, and at the same time, manage to post a very long message full of proper spelling, spacing, AND punctuation for the first time ever. Well, except for the last paragraph.

Priceless.

For those of you claiming to need further definition of hacker and cracker after I posted my very clear definition, I wholeheartedly sympathize with your condition, and can only suggest that you go back to grade school and re-take your reading comprehension courses.

Have we beat this dead horse enough? Are we done feeding the trolls? Can't we all just get a long stick and beat each other senseless?

And one more thing: Elizabeth, bite me :)

[laserlight]

Can't we all just get a long stick and beat each other senseless?
What about lightsabers at low power? :D

[BuzzLY]

Yes! A fight to the pain!

[Weedpacket]

I find this hilarious. You manage to insult everyone you believe has low intelligence, and at the same time, manage to post a very long message full of proper spelling, spacing, AND punctuation for the first time ever. Well, except for the last paragraph.Yes; it's only a shame that we have no way of knowing who the unknown plagiarist is due to the crass lack of citation.

Have we beat this dead horse enough? Are we done feeding the trolls? Can't we all just get a long stick and beat each other senseless?Nononono! Like goldbug, I'm trying to trigger Godwin's Law!

[planetsim]

What about lightsabers at low power? :D
Why only low power? And since when did a lightsaber come in high and low power, did I miss the latest star wars toy lightsaber :(

[dalecosp]

IIRC, a normal lightsaber cuts cleanly AND cauterizes.

Now, we couldn't have that could we? That'd be worse than that German guy....

[Weedpacket]

"Set your weapon to stun."
"Sledge, our guns don't have a stun setting."
"Well, that's their bad luck then."