IE vs. CSS

[ajdegans]

Lo there, im trying to understand this.

I heard IE isnt to strict on CSS and stuff like that so theres times IE is doomed to hell for not showing a proper website. This is one of those times... :)

I know a fair bit HTML/CSS and am working on a website right now.
Now i notice that when i use in a table tag something like:

<table cellspacing='0'> it works in bots FF and IE.

But when i want to use CSS:

border-spacing: 0px;

It ONLY works in FF, IE just wont use the border-spacing style.
Does anyone know a reasonable workaround except for useing cellspacing? Im trying to use as much css as possible and want the website to be compatible with both IE and FF.

Thanks in advance!

[Jason Batten]

Um, you should be able to use padding? Give us some code to view.

Use a combination of div and tables, otherwise you'll find yourself limited. Nothing wrong with tables, just make sure you put your <div id="nav"> at the bottom of the page ;)

Good luck

[ajdegans]

.maintable {
background-color: #ffffff;
background-image: url(../images/table_bg.gif);
background-repeat: repeat-x;
width: 1000px;
padding: 0px;
border-spacing: 5px;
border: 1px;
}

Is what i have, this works perfectly in firefox.
but the border-spacing style isnt working for IE

[Weedpacket]

It also works in Opera :)

Depending on how fancy your borders are, you might be able to fake a zero border-spacing with "border-collapse:collapse;". But there is of course a difference between the two.

[Jason Batten]

Okay, it doesn't work for me (in IE or FF) and border-spacing isn't a tag... is it (http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_border.asp)?

[LoganK]

[topic-hijack]
This is sort-of related, so forgive me for hijacking the topic :D I've seen many people say not to use tables anymore - they're depracated and you should try and use CSS rather than tables. I'm at a loss as to how CSS could/would replace tables - has anyone done this before? Or, does anyone have a link to a tutorial which could explain how I stop using tables and start using CSS?
[/topic-hijack]

[vaaaska]

We've been here before on this subject many times...

Nobody says not to use tables at all...they say use tables properly. Meaning, for tabular data. With regards to layout, tables were never meant for that purpose.

I say, if you can write clean code, understand CSS well, use tables all you want (because you are likely to produce stuff that isn't garbage).

Another tangent, you know that the img tag is on it's way out too right? Somewhere in the works that one got out of control. In the future you will be able to apply images and/or even multiple background images to things (via the src attribute).

I'm sure this one will make people go insane as well.

[LoganK]

Another tangent, you know that the img tag is on it's way out too right? Somewhere in the works that one got out of control. In the future you will be able to apply images and/or even multiple background images to things (via the src attribute).

I'm sure this one will make people go insane as well.

Definitely ;)

[goldbug]

Okay, it doesn't work for me (in IE or FF) and border-spacing isn't a tag... is it (http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_border.asp)?
border-spacing (http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#propdef-border-spacing) is a valid CSS2 property, supported by Firefox and Opera, but not IE.

[Jason Batten]

Cheers for that goldbug, interesting...

I should really buy a good CSS book, only got a cheap 15 buck quick guide...

[ajdegans]

hah, ive been gone for what? 2 days :) some discussion...

heh. Anyway. I did not found a satisfying sollution so i will just use html: cellspacing="0"

sadly. Also i contact microsoft on this matter sofar they only responded with:

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft Online Customer Service.

I understand from your message that you want to enquire about the "Cascaded Style Sheets" and I also infer that you are located in Netherlands. I realize the importance of your concern.

I would like to inform you that, your best resource for support is the Microsoft's Netherlands subsidiary.

There are significant programming differences between North America and localized versions of software. You will be best assisted by the subsidiary that specializes in the version.

To contact your local subsidiary in Netherlands, please call +31 (0)20-5001 500
or you may also visit
http://www.microsoft.com/netherlands/default.aspx

I hope the above information is helpful. If you have further questions, please do write back to us and we will be glad to assist you.

Thank you for using Microsoft products and services.

Faisal
Microsoft Online Customer Service Representative

If you have any feedback about your Online Customer Service experience, please email my manager, Nikhil Ramachandran, at managers@microsoft.com

-----Original Message-----
From: info@zerocom.nl (info@zerocom.nl)
Date: Saturday, October 08, 2005 05:28 PM
To: CS (msconus@microsoft.com)
Subject: CSS handling in IE6

---
SYSTEEMEIGENSCHAPPEN DOOR KLANT GELEVERD
Land: Netherlands
---
SYSTEEMEIGENSCHAPPEN
URL-verwijzing: http://support.microsoft.com/gp/contactusie
Besturingssyteem: windows nt 5.0
Taalversie besturingssysteem: nl
Browser: msie 6.0
Taalversie browser: nl
---
VRAGEN OF OPMERKINGEN
Bericht: When is css handling done properly?
I use alot of css in my websites and notice that alot of the styles are not working as they should or not working AT ALL...

How can we use a webstandard like w3 when the most popular browser isnt supporting it!?!

Looking at the original mail i'd say im at the dutch support desk already... but ok.

Not very helpfull, the more since my browser isnt dutch at all! But i replied that to them today:) lets see what that turns up.
Note: this is a hopeless attempt to draw their attention on supporting valid code...

Anyway, who said css is replacing tables? if so, please send me a toturial how to do this... All i know is how to write html tables and how to 'define' them with css

Thanks!

[Weedpacket]

I was quite chuffed a while back after writing an entire web-based front end to a document management application (keying documents, revision history, collation, categorisation, status flagging, yadayadayada). It used plenty of tables, but only for tabular data; Not for things like laying out form input, or UI element positioning or anything like that. Well, with precisely one exception. To get around IE's failure to support position:fixed I had to resort to using a table to position the menubar. If I recall rightly the comment in the code at that points reads
<!-- Yes. I used a table for layout. I feel so unclean. -->

[Jason Batten]

What is it with developers and being so very anal about such things as CSS.

*flaps arms* "Oh you must not put non-tabular data in a table"

Honestly, There's more *****yness & hissyness on a developers forum than there is in a gay-bar. If you want to use every standard possible then thats grand but no one is going to give you a medal.

[ajdegans]

Honestly, There's more *****yness & hissyness on a developers forum than there is in a gay-bar. If you want to use every standard possible then thats grand but no one is going to give you a medal.

why are you being anal about us willing to use standards :) lol

[vaaaska]

To get around IE's failure to support position:fixed I had to resort to using a table to position the menubar. If I recall rightly the comment in the code at that points reads

Yep, I've been there a few times lately (the exact same issue) - it's rather frustrating as it's...well, you've pointed it out.

[ajdegans]

I gave up on microsoft support... please tell me im wrong but am i being unclear in my email?

Latest email at the top (also the point where i decided this is a pointless action, either their bot (if it is a bot) is stupid or the support worker is even more retarded...)
Hello Arnan,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft Online Customer Service.

I understand your copy of Microsoft Windows is a Dutch version.

Arnan, If you have obtained Microsoft Windows in Netherlands, I recommend you contact Microsoft Subsidiary in Netherlands. As mentioned earlier, there are significant programming differences between North American and localized versions of software. Hence, I recommend that you obtain support from the Microsoft Subsidiary that specializes in your version of Windows.

I hope the information provided above is helpful

Thank you for using Microsoft products and services.

Dennis
Microsoft Online Customer Service Representative

If you have any feedback about your Online Customer Service experience, please e-mail my manager, Biji Balan, at managers@microsoft.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Arnan J. de Gans -- ZeroCom computers (info@zerocom.nl)
Date: Monday, October 10, 2005 03:28 PM
To: Microsoft Contact US (msconus@microsoft.com)
Subject: Re: RE: CSS handling in IE6


Hi Dennis,

My windows version is dutch..
With the latest updates from microsoft it downloaded english updates. Thats why the browser is in english.
Although i dont really see what this got to do with the issue at hand.

met vriendelijke groet/kind regards,
Arnan J de Gans
ZeroCom computers

***************************************************************************
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voor de geadresseerde. Indien het wordt ontvangen door iemand anders,
wordt diegene dringend verzocht het te retourneren aan de afzender.
***************************************************************************
The information sent with this e-mailmessage is intended exclusively
for the addressee. If it is received by someone else, he/she is urgently
requested to return it to the sender.
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----- Original Message -----
From: Microsoft Contact US
To: Arnan J. de Gans -- ZeroCom computers
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:06 AM
Subject: RE:'RTCProd=009-698-130' CSS handling in IE6


Hello Arnan,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft Online Customer Service.

I understand your Windows is of English version.

However, to assist you further, please provide the following information.

- Where did you purchase your copy of Microsoft Windows? (Netherlands or United States of America).

We appreciate your patience and look forward to your reply with the above
information.

Thank you for using Microsoft products and services.

Dennis
Microsoft Online Customer Service Representative

If you have any feedback about your Online Customer Service experience, please e-mail my manager, Biji Balan, at managers@microsoft.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Arnan J. de Gans -- ZeroCom computers (info@zerocom.nl)
Date: Monday, October 10, 2005 07:26 AM
To: Microsoft Contact US (msconus@microsoft.com)
Subject: Re: RE: CSS handling in IE6


My browser (IE6 sp1) is in english language. Although it says its dutch, all the menus and options are english. My windows version is dutch though.
I dont believe the Code interpreters are different per spoken language since all webcode should function the same and therefor the code interpreters cannot be different per language.

met vriendelijke groet/kind regards,
Arnan J de Gans
ZeroCom computers

***************************************************************************
De informatie verzonden met dit e-mailbericht is uitsluitend bestemd
voor de geadresseerde. Indien het wordt ontvangen door iemand anders,
wordt diegene dringend verzocht het te retourneren aan de afzender.
***************************************************************************
The information sent with this e-mailmessage is intended exclusively
for the addressee. If it is received by someone else, he/she is urgently
requested to return it to the sender.
***************************************************************************


----- Original Message -----
From: Microsoft Contact US
To: info@zerocom.nl
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 1:28 PM
Subject: RE:'RTCProd=009-698-130' CSS handling in IE6


Hello,

Thank you for contacting Microsoft Online Customer Service.

I understand from your message that you want to enquire about the "Cascaded Style Sheets" and I also infer that you are located in Netherlands. I realize the importance of your concern.

I would like to inform you that, your best resource for support is the Microsoft's Netherlands subsidiary.

There are significant programming differences between North America and localized versions of software. You will be best assisted by the subsidiary that specializes in the version.

To contact your local subsidiary in Netherlands, please call +31 (0)20-5001 500
or you may also visit
http://www.microsoft.com/netherlands/default.aspx

I hope the above information is helpful. If you have further questions, please do write back to us and we will be glad to assist you.

Thank you for using Microsoft products and services.

Faisal
Microsoft Online Customer Service Representative

If you have any feedback about your Online Customer Service experience, please email my manager, Nikhil Ramachandran, at managers@microsoft.com

-----Original Message-----
From: info@zerocom.nl (info@zerocom.nl)
Date: Saturday, October 08, 2005 05:28 PM
To: CS (msconus@microsoft.com)
Subject: CSS handling in IE6

---
SYSTEEMEIGENSCHAPPEN DOOR KLANT GELEVERD
Land: Netherlands
---
SYSTEEMEIGENSCHAPPEN
URL-verwijzing: http://support.microsoft.com/gp/contactusie
Besturingssyteem: windows nt 5.0
Taalversie besturingssysteem: nl
Browser: msie 6.0
Taalversie browser: nl
---
VRAGEN OF OPMERKINGEN
Bericht: When is css handling done properly?
I use alot of css in my websites and notice that alot of the styles are not working as they should or not working AT ALL...

How can we use a webstandard like w3 when the most popular browser isnt supporting it!?!

:quiet:

[Weedpacket]

You know, CSS2 has been around for seven years! The only reason it's at all contentious is solely because Internet Explorer after all this time still isn't up to par. If Microsoft (who had and still has plenty of presence on the W3C's working group) had bothered way back then to implement a browser that supported the standard, then even developers who were just starting out at the time would find it familiar and comfortable today and this "controversy" about using tables would have been dead before the twentieth century was. Netscape would have had to either pull its finger out and match it or it disappear so fast it wouldn't even have had time to spawn off the Mozilla Foundation. But since that would not have enhanced Microsoft's shareholder value as much as what the company did do, it could not do it.

I still hate that table. That table really stuck in my craw (And is it called a "craw" at any other time than when something is stuck in it?). Our plan was to make the application skinnable, so that customers could have the L&F styled to match their own preferences without having to fart around with anything other than the stylesheet (if they didn't want to do it themselves we'd do it for them as a service). We'd got a couple of themes done, but the initial theme had to mimic the previous (standalone) version of the app as closely as possible. That damn menubar..... with deadline looming I choked back the tears and with a few keystrokes limited our skinning capabilities by something approaching an infinite number of possibilities. I knew it sucked. Everyone knew I knew it sucked. It left me with a sense of wounded professionalism.

I was reminded of my car's transmission.

Back before I owned it, my car had undergone some maintenance on its transmission. Later, I bought it, and years later was cruising down the motorway in the fast lane at ambient speed (which would have been in the 105-115 km/h range), just going along with the flow. Without warning the car dropped straight down into first gear; obviously this didn't do my speed (or engine) any good and I had suddenly become an obstruction. Three lanes of traffic later I was on the shoulder looking for the next offramp.

The fault was discovered and repaired easily enough: one of the gears had worn smooth - effectively no teeth left on it at all. The manufacturer specified that the gear be made of brass, but this one was teflon. When it had been worked on all those years ago, someone had (I dunno, maybe they were under a deadline and couldn't get one in brass in time) used the wrong technology to do the job.

As soon as someone wants that menu bar to be a floating box ... first gear. I'm just glad that "skins" were not a mission-critical aspect. But if someone comes across that clanger they're going to wonder unkind things about the rest of the app. And that sucks as well.

[vaaaska]

It left me with a sense of wounded professionalism.

Ouch. Your brining back the horror of the situation for me. I designed this thing up and for whatever reason didn't get to the nav until the end. Everything else was settled and then I had to get this nav thing rolling. But it wasn't going to happen. I think I spent three days wondering what I was going to do...trying and testing somethings...looking for logical alternates...and in the end I felt like MS had violated my rights. Like having somebody break into my car and steal my stuff (if it's ever happened to you - you will understand the feeling).