May I ask a question about WINE?

[vaaaska]

I get the gist of this but there is one thing that I'm not sure about...

Wine HQ (http://www.winehq.com/)

Think of Wine as a compatibility layer for running Windows programs. Wine does not require Microsoft Windows, as it is a completely free alternative implementation of the Windows API consisting of 100% non-Microsoft code, however Wine can optionally use native Windows DLLs if they are available. Wine provides both a development toolkit for porting Windows source code to Unix as well as a program loader, allowing many unmodified Windows programs to run on x86-based Unixes, including Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris.

Does this mean what I think it means - the possibility to run Windows apps without Windows?

On a related note, it's much rumored with some concrete evidence that Apple is working up the same for 10.5.

Ok, it was in front of my face anyways...but this is interesting enough that I'll leave it up here. Shall I mark it resolved! ;)

Myth 4: "You need Windows anyways":

No. The goal of Wine is a full reimplementation of the Windows API which will make Windows unnecessary.

You can already run a lot of applications without having Windows installed. But you have to realize that because Wine is still far from completion many applications will indeed require Windows for some functionality that Wine does not yet provide itself.

This is what happens when you don't play fair or have repsect for the people out there...

[Weedpacket]

I've finally seen WINE running on a Playstation 2. When I first suggested it I was told I was one sick puppy.

[dalecosp]

I'm not an expert on WINE, but I've used it.

On my desktop, I've run a couple of older win apps on it. ATM, one or both is broken, I'm not sure why, as I've got winboxen if I need 'em, and a web resource that's as good as or better for one of the apps.

I've also got a commercial client who doesn't necessarily know that they're using WINE. 3 FreeBSD workstations boot to a text login prompt, then run a Win32 terminal app in WINE to connect to another brand of non-Windows server, full screen, so it's no big deal to them as long as it Just Works(tm). Currently, these three show uptimes of 17, 22, and 10 days, so I guess we're not doing too bad there, keeping in mind it's a fairly simple task, software wise (tho setting it up wasn't exactly cake all the way through, either, in a 3-way heterogenous environment).

If you read enough of their docs, it appears you can tune up a box to do a whole lot with it ... but it's like learning another OS, based on what I've seen. Maybe not, but it's not exactly clickety go, either....

I think the Holy Grail of Wine is either Office 2003 or (insert latest greatest heavy game title here).I've finally seen WINE running on a Playstation 2. When I first suggested it I was told I was one sick puppy.Well, if you are, I'd not think it based on that. I kinda like your web personna, myself....

[vaaaska]

Hehe...MS IE6 on Linux (http://blog.drinsama.de/erich/en/linux/2006040302-msie-on-linux)

[bubblenut]

Nice little interview with Jeremy White on LUG Radio.Iteresting development strategy.
http://www.lugradio.org/episodes/#episode43

[dalecosp]

Hehe...MS IE6 on Linux (http://blog.drinsama.de/erich/en/linux/2006040302-msie-on-linux)Yeah, that's what I mean about having to RTFM so much to use it well. The procedure, though not too difficult, doesn't seem intuitive to me; not as intuitive as clicking the big "E" on a Windows desktop, nor as easy as typing "firefox &" in a xterm (and yes, I have graphical launchers, but whatever....)

So, it's cool, but it's one more thing to have to RTFM on, and I'm not aware of much Win32 software that I absolutely have to have working on my box in order to get any Real Work(tm) done....

[vaaaska]

OH MY GOD! This is all getting more interesting by the moment. Except, I'm not savvy enough to truly understand the underpinnings of all of this but it does seem clear that the OS's that be are all trying to get in on each others act. And here come's MS with free stuff...

MS virtual server free - run Linux on it (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/virtualserver/default.mspx) (with Linux Support too?)

Perhaps this is old type news...but somebody must be able to paint the bigger picture for us who aren't in the know.

[dalecosp]

Don't you figure, at least from MSFT's standpoint, it just about marketing?

"If you absolutely have to have Leenux, whatever the h#ll that is, you can just run it in a virtual machine on our extremely attractive and stable Windows Vista!!!!"

Incidentally, I think my MSCE wannabe brother (who really is better than a lot of MSCEs) went to a Linux conference last year running Debian (or maybe SUSE) in emulation on an XP laptop....

[bubblenut]

There's also cygwin (http://www.cygwin.com/). I've not really used it much but apparently it's pretty good.

[thorpe]

There's also cygwin. I've not really used it much but apparently it's pretty good.
No better than the underlying OS.

[dalecosp]

Indeed, I've not been overly impressed. IIRC, I was astounded that it didn't have something basic (cat, grep, echo, traceroute, *something*) in the base Cygwin package.

Once again, though, it's probably just that I've not RTFM enough... also, I don't think you can "replace" the win processes with Cygwin, so you end up running 2 OSes with the same amount of resources that could be devoted to either; however, that would be a valid problem with VM-type stuff, too, I guess.

[vaaaska]

Holy bejeezus...and it doesn't stop there. Somebody beat Apple to the virtualization game on their own OS (which is probably even more proof that Apple is working on it):

Virtualization for the Mac Arrives (http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsID=5712)

Virtualisation software company Parallels said it will announce a virtualisation product for Intel-powered Macs, with more details becoming available later this week.

According to spokesman Ben Rudolph: "We will enable users to run multiple operating systems (like Linux and Windows) simultaneously with Mac OS X. This is not simply a "dual-boot" but instead gives our users the ability to use Windows or any other operating system at the same time as Mac OS X, enabling users to enjoy the comfort of their Mac OS X desktop while still being able to use critical applications from other OSes."

Parallels is a privately held, US-based software company that launched its first virtualisation tool, Parallels Workstation, last year. The Russian-developed software competes directly with VMware Workstation and Microsoft Virtual PC, albeit -- at the time of launch - -at a lower price.

Since then. VMware has started giving away VMware Workstation.

[vaaaska]

Actually, I've been thinking about this for a few days...I doubt I'm all right on this...

This has alot to do with technology for the most part. However, I believe that some smart folks years ago realized how bad things were going for the MS Vista effort. These same folks knew that a window (haha) of opportunity was about to open where MS would be stuck for probably 5 years or more (I've heard 10 in some places). MS should and probably will eventually do what Apple did years ago and completely rewrite Vista OR buy something they can get to market relatively quickly.

More important that marken share they are losing the mindshare. It's pretty clear that Linux and Apple are moving upwards. Open source continues it's march. Governments, banks, universities are buying in completely to other systems (just read about both a bank and a school that are completely ditching Windows machines for Apple).

So, this window is here and the technology is here and payback for MS could be really tough. Apple is in a particularly interesting space with OSX being very good and also these Intel chip things living inside the Mac computers. If you can run Linux and Windows or at least some virtualization of the whole thing what folks going to buy? (I know you guys will say Linux so I'll just pretend you didn't). ;)

It's a really interesting thing that's starting to happen...the winds are shifting.

[Weedpacket]

...what Apple did years ago and completely rewrite ...But remember that Apple had a big advantage in this situation: they could get Steve Jobs back and have him bring NextStep along with him (probably about the only major app written in Objective-C. At least, it's the only one I can think of).

[vaaaska]

Oh yeah, and they only pay him $1 per year. What a bargain! Of course, he owns something like 10,000,000 shares of Apple. Let's talk about performance incentives!

[vaaaska]

Apple BootCamp (http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;) ;) ;)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dalecosp]

Hmm; just as soon as the legal team gets finished in the EU ..... ;) :D

[hijinio]

Bootcamp doesn't do the same thing as Wine. Not sure if that's what you were eluding to, but I wanted to clear that up. ;)

I use Wine quite regularly. Even wrote an article about an older version of it for the JDS: http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/content/submitted/running_wine.html

As I wrote in the article, "...remember that Wine is not an emulator; after all, 'Wine' stands for 'Wine Is Not an Emulator'. Wine is an API. Basically, when a Windows application asks for a Windows component, Wine provides the Linux equivalent."

So, no virtualization. No dual-booting. Just running a Windows apps running on your Linux desktop. Of course, that's IF the app runs in Wine, but if they can get Photoshop and Half-Life 2 to run, then the possibilities are endless: http://appdb.winehq.org/appimage.php?id=256 and http://appdb.winehq.org/appimage.php?id=637

Hiji

[vaaaska]

Yes, the certainly are different, but they achieve similar goals.

It's clear that there is alot of niggling around in this particular space...with all the announcements that came out in just three days.

I read, but I don't quite get it yet, that somebody is running XP straight up on a Mac - without BootCamp. The firmware upgrade released today apparently makes this possible. I believe that BootCamp is just the concept and in 10.5 the integration will be really tight (but no, it won't be exactly like Wine I'm pretty sure). But this doesn't mean that somebody else won't bring it to the Mac (I know of two projects working on it with good success already).

[khendar]

Back on to the original topic. I have played with Wine before (a few years ago now) and it did a fairly good job on most of the apps I tried. The entire Macromedia MX suite ran without a hitch. Most of the smaller editing apps I used worked, Photoshop was a no-go, neither were any of the games I tried. Mind you I had a very linux-unfriendly system at the time (Ati gfx card etc) But anything is possible. I saw guys running Warcraft3, UT2003 etc on linux (under Wine I believe) and this was a couple of years ago.

[hijinio]

But this doesn't mean that somebody else won't bring it to the Mac
Darwine was a port in progress of Wine for the PPC: http://darwine.opendarwin.org/
And the CrossOver team is working on porting it to Intel Macs, but it's got a ways to go: http://winehq.org/?issue=308#Wine%20on%20MacOS%20X

Photoshop was a no-go
That's interesting for a number of reasons. Disney actually was the company that got Photoshop to run under Wine. See here: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,1210083,00.asp So, you may have tried it before then. Also, for me, seeing Photoshop run on Wine is what REALLY got me to jump ship from Windows to Linux because, at the time, I heavily relied on Wine + Photoshop to do my job on a Linux desktop.

Hiji

[khendar]

Yes but can it run 3D Studio Max ? :P

And yeh - this was a couple of years ago now (maybe 3)

[vaaaska]

Oh, and one more thing...it's Boot's Linux too... (http://theweeklyrant.com/article/8/news-apple-bootcamp-boots-linux)