Working with MVC and a web designer

[Pinesol33]

Hey all,

I am building a medium-sized web application with symfony, a Model-View-Controller framework for PHP like Rails is for Ruby ((URL address blocked: See forum rules) ). Thus far, I am having no trouble using this framework.

Unfortunately, the designer who is working with me is not comfortable with symfony because he feels that the process for a web designer is much different with symfony than it is for other projects he has been a part of. Since it seems many aspects of the symfony templates are hidden, or at least spread around several directories, he does not understand how he could edit a page that might be composed of several templates or actions visually in something like dreamweaver.

I am of purely computer science background (PHP, Java, C, etc.) and know little about client side things like HTML, CSS, and AJAX so I do not know what advice to give him. I have told him to look at the view, form, and ajax chapters of the symfony book, but he says these have not given him the info he wants.

Have any of you PHP coders ever had this experience? If so, what advice did you give your designer? Perhaps someone could outline how he should go about setting his design environment for a dynamic (instead of static) application? He just wants to be able to edit pages composed of several templates both visually and with raw code in dreamweaver.

Thanks!

[Elizabeth]

hi Pinesol,
You might suggest that your designer read the intro chapters in the symfony book as well - particularly the chapter on Basic Page Creation (http://www.symfony-project.com/book/trunk/04-The-Basics-of-Page-Creation). I think if he/she understands the concepts behind MVC, it may help clear things up. There is also a good article explaining how MVC in general works from php|architect (http://www.phparch.com/issue.php?mid=9), which you could also suggest. I don't think the MVC concept is for the faint of heart though, but if your designer can understand why it's so important and basically how it's put together then I think it will help. If they resist, I might suggest that not only will this information help out on this one project, from then on, they will be able to deal with any site using an MVC framework (which I might add is probably going to be much more prevalent, especially in PHP). Learning something new can only help you in your career.

Thinking about this a little more in design terms, it's kind of like going from <font color="blah"> to using CSS. As we all know, you can make one little change in CSS and it will change your whole site for you, thus making your life a whole lot easier. MVC is kind of like that I think - it just takes changing your mindset.

[vaaaska]

No. Don't tell them to read anything. Why in the bleep does a 'designer' need to even care what an MVC is?

Designers design stuff...programmers program stuff.

Unless, like myself, you can do both. This thread is completely annoying beyond belief. Do YOUR job and build the site...let the designer do his and stop expecting them to do YOUR job.

Or, hire the right people for the job in the first place.

What. Ev. Er.

(I am beyond sick and tired of people devaluing design. If you can do it then do it. How about if you work for peanuts because your skills are so strong (which I seriously doubt)).

[vaaaska]

Hey, I can also do copywriting, write marketing and business plans...would you like me to build anything in C++ for you?

Geezus.

[Elizabeth]

Easy there Vaaaska - why wouldn't you want your designer to be able to understand what's going on? Don't you think that would help him or her be able to work better with the programmers? That's like saying to a programmer - hey, you don't need to know _anything_ about HTML or CSS. It's absurd. They should at least have a basic knowledge of the topics - I'm not saying become experts in it, but you should at least know enough to be able to have a conversation about it.

And who is devaluing design? I certainly wasn't. It seems like you don't think designers can handle the MVC stuff.

Knowledge is power, my friend, and it can only help improve communication and team development if people are closer to being on the same page.

[vaaaska]

Designers design...they don't need to knwo about MVC. Do you need to know about color percentages? Kerning? The complications of print management? I don't need to go easy at all...

And no, I don't expect a designer to know what an MVC is...of course, I am a designer and I do know what that is. I expect a designer to be a designer.

This person is expecting somebody to do their job and whine about it as well here. Plain and simple. I've seen this before around here and in the past I have been equally as non-plussed about it. As, perhaps the only real designer around here I feel that I need to stand up to this kind of stupidity.

[Elizabeth]

Well by not learning about MVC, the designer is effectively removing him or herself from any project that uses a framework. That probably doesn't bode well for his or her career. As I said, I wouldn't expect them to become experts in the field, just enough to know what files they would need to change and how their changes will affect the rest of the app. Don't you think that make sense?

I think tunnel vision isn't good for anyone... and just because the designer isn't "comfortable" isn't a reason to re-code the whole app. I'd be finding someone who was at least willing to try. The alternative is that programmers do the design, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want that either ;)

[vaaaska]

Ok...so people are supposed to do your job for you in your opinion. Cough up the bucks - and expect them to take the time to learn about something that is none of their business.

Yeah, completely stupid that a designer should ever have to care about what an MVC is in the first place. Flawed argument.

[Elizabeth]

I'm not really sure what you mean by someone doing their job for you. If a project uses symfony, then someone has to do the design. If the designer doesn't understand how symfony works, then my point is that the developer will have to do the design - which is basically what you're against, aren't you? Here's a question then for the peanut gallery - if the designers aren't supposed to know anything about MVC and the developers aren't supposed to know anything about design then who is going to do it?

My point was that is if this designer can bridge the gap, then all the better for him and everyone involved. I'm not saying he has to code the whole darn thing using MVC. If he can't bridge the gap with general knowledge, then perhaps the developer needs to find someone who can, or is at least willing to try.

And anyway, aren't you kind of being hypocritical by being able to do both design and development? Isn't that going against everything you're standing for right now? If I understand you correctly, you're vehemently against designers and developers crossing any lines between job descriptions, yet you yourself do that every day? I'm confused by and intrigued with why you're so bothered in a designer learning MVC.

[vaaaska]

Ok, you want to call me a hypocrit now? I think it means that you can't hold up a stable argument.

Call me name...and I'll call you names back.

Designers design...developers develope.

Whatever E...good riddance...

[Elizabeth]

I'm seriously not trying to be a ***** about it, I was only trying to distinguish the difference between this designer learning about MVC and you learning about MVC. That's all. No big deal, really. Certainly don't want any hard feelings - we're all about the love here in the EL. :)

I'm sure Pinesol will be able to come to some sort of compromise with his designer, and I'm sure he's not the only one who's come across this sort of problem.

Pinesol - if and when you get this worked out - let us know how things went, ok?