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when i was consulting a client about whether or not he was going to accept my offer and my strategies for application development, including of course the open-source technology, i received from him in return, a rather discomforting "blank stare".
not being one who really gives a shake about what i'm doing vs what everyone else is doing, i didn't really care what he knows or does not know about-- however, i did of course want to represent some amount of credibility. but, when trying to say "well, sure, you know PHP-- uh... you know who uses it is... uh... ". now, of course there are a TON of entities out there using php, and there are articles all over the 'net about MySQL vs ORCL, and/or PHP vs ASP.NET, etc.
the URL above, i found while trying to find an annoying article that i wanted to show you to illustrate the point i'm about to try to make-- i discovered it while trying to drum something up to show this guy after i got the gig. i wanted him to say "oh, now i see-- okay, php is all over the place! and i see that other credible companies are using it.."
i don't know that i ever gave him anything--whatever, the point is that this article, which i can't find, discussed PHP vs "other" programming languages. IMHO, it was propaganda, through and through.
the article (which i hope to someday find it and come back here w/ a URL-- or maybe someone will do that for us!) was basically like this-- a back-handed praise, if you will. it talked about how php / mysql is good for "upstarts" because of the extraordinary learning curve (a fast curve toward production, which of course is in no small way supported by the very community which uses the technology-- the "we and us" in this forum, for example) will allow for inexperienced (implied = underqualified) developers to create applications. the flip side of this argument , of course, is that those who work with other, similar technologies-- those applications developed by the "experienced" (implied = formal education which must be required to use them?) programmers are what your business should look at instead if you are serious about the success of your business.
what does this propaganda teach someone who buys into it? what do those implications really mean-- do they have any ground to stand on? is there really anything for a company to worry about-- any company who has sense enough to hire a developer who knows how to build a stable, functional application-- if they are going to choose PHP or ASP.NET as their backend of choice?
i know one thing-- it made me feel like a "hack", not a "hacker", but someone who is a piece of shake. should i might as well accept the fact that i've learned this stuff, and will remain among the inexperienced developers-- hmmm-- forever? it's a really weird thing that propaganda. what's your opinion on it? do you think this guy, who like i said, was in a large part praising the use and existence of PHP/ MySQL in today's "upstart" businesses, forums, young development community, etc, is actually probably working for Microsoft's ASP.NET development team, or what? (that's a joke, in case my humor is truly that bad)
who are these people!?!
not to de-rail the thread before it gets started, but if you have some URL's of any good resources for demonstrating to clients / potential clients the genuine credibility of PHP/ MySQL, i'd appreciate you sharing them. thanks!
I'm sorry if I get this wrong but I had trouble following your.. post. It appears to me [correct if wrong] that you are having trouble convincing your client that the technology you use will be the best choice. You should never assume the client has knowledge of programming or web development. You should never speak techno mumbo jumbo to a client, they speak business, so you have to talk their talk.
On the other side, you appear to comment about PHP vs. other languages. It is not a matter of which is the best, it is a matter of which best suits the project. Again, clients tend not to give a flying frog - they just want to know you'll make them money.
:bemused: still not sure what you're asking or saying.
yeah, sorry 'bout that-- i tend to ramble on and on, and forget that no one has had a chance to even say "wait! first, explain what are you talking about?!"
i'm not asking anything in the first post above. the questions are rhetorical.
apparently i did a bad job of trying to illustrate my annoyance at the propaganda which exists to "keep the man down"-- that "man" being PHP/ MySQL developers in this particular scenario.
the rhetorical questions at the end-- had i made more sense in the first place-- were to incite from the PHPBuilder.com community some of their own commentary on the subject of anti-php propaganda-- especially that which implies that those developers using PHP are merely "inexperienced programmers who have found something with which they are able to insert dynamic content into their web sites" [and this is a Keyword from that article:], and these "former web page builders" choose PHP over the "other" languages because of the support that we get from each other.
the point here-- this type of rhetoric totally disqualifies even the most educated, experienced, ingenius programmers on the planet-- if, and according to this article, only if he or she is using PHP / MySQL.
now do you get it?
the author of that article (which i apologize i am unable to site momentarily), and others like him, have simply a stealthy way of saying "come here and listen to me explain to you why you should buy MY stuff instead"
("my stuff", of course being something other than PHP/ MySQL)
this thread was intended not to talk about how to successfully score a client-- that part was just to grab your attention. however, it is supposed to get you to consider what your potential clients might have read elsewhere-- and what might be their preconceptions of YOU-- not your work, but YOU, and your work too of course.
edit: (yes, late for an edit)
i should have stressed or at least stated, although it's probably clear anyway, that this article i've been referencing has been duplicated in many different paraphrased forms all over the business tech community -- hence my inspiration for writing this little rant.
hey, onion! thanks for two really good resources!!! very nice.
edit:
NOTE: i re-wrote the first post for clarification, if you've read it and it didn't make sense the first time, it might make a little more to you now. thanks for your patience!
I don't think that they were putting it down, or it should be perceived as propaganda. I mean, if you developed a new bed, one that did everything for you, wouldn't you say "look at what this can do compared to MINE!?! Those beds are for the average new-to-sleep person. Mine is for the more experienced sleeper.". Seems to me, it's just a sales tactic. You put your competitors down by bringing out their flaws or major misconceptions as truth.
When talking to clients, or generally selling services, you should be selling yourself and your ethic, not what you're going to build with. If I build a deck, I'm not going to tell them what wood, bolts, nails and finish I'm going to use, I show them what I've done, and give them ideas of what i can do. I also give them comparisons as to what others have done, and how I've surpassed them. Seems to me, that this article is taking that stance.
PHP is really a "newb" language as the learning curve is minimal. On the flip-side though, it's free, it's VERY extensible, and you don't have to pay for use. It's also very intricate and you can do just about anything with it. The PHP community is about making things work. The MS and other closed-source communities are about making products that seem better but aren't, and making the consumer pay out the @$$ for them. If you take your client, and tell them:
"Yes, many sites are designed with ASP(.NET) and many with PHP(.COMMUNITY). There is negligible difference as to which is better and which can perform your task better. Both have the same basic ideas, and it's just a matter of coding.
"If the code is written clean and concise, the program will run fast. If not, there is a chance for latency and sluggishness. This happens in any programming language. PHP is open source and will save you hundreds of dollars in server costs per year because you don't need to pay for MS Server 2kX, or support team costs because of a known MS error. PHP is a community project with hundreds of coders donating their time in different ways to make it better year in and year out."
I understand where you come from, but if you rebuttle it and start a heated debate, seems to me that you're no better than the person that wrote the article. I'm sure if you asked the author what language they know, they'd say "ASP.NET" and that's it. No PHP. Why? Because they grew up on MS computers and were taught that all MS products will work in tandem with eachother and can be perfect. Well, PHP and Windows works for me.
Let your work speak for itself. Sell yourself, not the backbone of what you're creating. If you have to sell the language and not the product, they're not looking for a solution, they're looking for an answer. (There is a difference. Solution is something that works, and works well. Answer is something that does the job within paraemters (OS, Language, time)).
brett, my dear good man-- you've missed the point. but, it doesn't matter-- you've brought up some good stuff, so i guess i's all about conversation anyway.
this thread has nothing to do w/ me, or any clients which i might or might not have fabricated for the purpose of this illustration.
and, i also can not say if this guy was selling a product-- in fact, i don't think he was-- at least not directly. i believe it was an article titled "Is MySQL Ready for Enterprise Development"-- or some such thing as that.
It's not just a language holy war - some very interesting points are made. Particularly about what big companies want and need from their chosen platform, and who they can blame when it fails. If a company invests millions in an application they need some security from the vendor. Microsoft and Sun give them that, Zend doesn't.
hey there, shrike! thanks for your input. i appreciate it very much!
this is just one of those things that i came across and it sort of "bothered" me, so i wanted to see what others had to say about it all. it sounds like you picked up what i was trying to lay down, so i'm glad that maybe there's a sign that i'm not 100% nutz-- 90% maybe, but ...
-- the idea being.. does anyone else feel as i do about this type of thing? don't get me wrong-- i'm not trying to be some kind of php activist-- i guess i was just looking to see what are others' feelings on the subject if/ when you've ever heard talk of this viewpoint on php programmers being represented as glorified "web masters steppin' up the HTML form to include dynamic output", which of course implies that there are no serious, educated, or skilled programmers in the PHP community-- and in contrast, a business owner considering web apps should do better to look elsewhere... or some such nonsense.
this is NOT the article which inspired this thread, but Rober Peake's article at this URL better illustrates what i was trying to say when i opened this thread-- just to clear up anyone who didn't understand what i was trying to say here. -- mostly his last 2 paragraphs though really, after his "why the shame?" sentence on the subject of Quality (not livelihood). gotta love his use of "PHP Cowboys"
haha-- i hope i didn't just add to the confusion.
EDIT: actually-- i HIGHLY recommend you read the COMMENTS there as well-- as it turns out this is a really good little blog article (in my opinion)!!
darn it! i wish i would have bookmarked that other article! ugh! it stinks to not have the original text to cite!
considering the apparent illegibility of my attempt here, i figured i might as well try to make some better sense of my thoughts and re-write it into a little article for y'all.
it took me a while to finally push it out-- admittedly not the best movement-- but at least i'm not carrying it around w/ me anymore, so have a look if you wish.
said PHP 'n MySQL-- Client Gives Blank Stare
still not sure what you're asking or saying.
Springer's Final Thought
Linear Mode
